Pastor Smacks Down Bernie Sander’s Defense of Socialism With This Quote

Pastor Smacks Down Bernie Sander’s Defense of Socialism With This Quote

October 21st, 2015
Ideals

John Piper, author and former pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, had some striking criticisms of Bernie Sander’s socialist political platform. On a recent desiringGod.org podcast, Piper answered a question from a listener who asked, “How should Christians view socialism?”

Piper responded, stating first that he was no expert. However, in the church, they teach that “no one should go hungry… be without a place to stay. No one should fail to get the health care they need. No one should go without a job if it is possible for believers to help them find one.”

He asserted that even though these are tenants of the Christian belief structure, “all of this should happen through the free and uncoerced help of other believers.” Not, in other words, because of government edicts or mandates. 

Piper quoted Acts 2:44-45: “All who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.”

This was all being done freely by believers, of their own conviction and volition. He goes on to explain the difference between Christian charity and socialism:

“Now socialism refers to… a social and economic system that through legal or governmental or military coercion – in other words, you go to jail if you don’t do this.

“In other words, socialism borrows the compassionate aims of Christianity in meeting people’s needs while rejecting the Christian expectation that this compassion not be coerced or forced. Socialism gets is attractiveness at certain points in history where people are drawn to the entitlements that socialism brings, and where people are ignorant or forgetful of the coercion and the force required to implement it.”

This is one of the best explanations we’ve heard contrasting Christian charity and socialism. It’s also a reminder of why socialism can be attractive to Americans who don’t understand how socialist ideals are implemented: Through law and force of government.

Do you agree with John Piper’s dismantling or Bernie Sanders’ socialist ideals?

Give us your take in the comments section below.

  • Michael

    I wonder if it all started w/ fdr & the “raw deal.”

  • Concerned Citizen

    Amen. This is the right way, not by relying solely on handouts.

  • Chip Smoak

    Reverend Piper is correct. Assistance to needy individuals was once handled by churches and private organizations. It was handled much better than the government has ever handled it. There was much less fraud and abuse because the churches and their members knew who was truly in need. Government has proven to be inept at administering programs for the needy. For example, people who exceed the income levels for government housing are allowed to occupy such housing.

    • smilee

      Government in our country does not discriminate private charities some times do and before welfare programs church help was not suffient tot do the job for everyone. That same thing has happened in churchs as many who adninister them have said they are often lied to by people to get free stuff from the church.

      • hpinnc

        The government can’t afford it either. Most churches I am familiar with do a good job caring for the needy in the community. There are a lot of charlatans out there, now-a-days I know from experience, be aware of who calls on you for help. Some people you just plain can’t help. A lot could do a better job helping themselves.

        • smilee

          Oh really we do not take care of all so we need all the help we can from all sources. We have far too many employed persons who do not make enough money to provide for their needs and on gov welfare progams 67% are employed and churches and private charities food shelves all together are not meeting the needs. Churches do thier part but they alone cannot meet the need. Many charities to are corrupt. If we could find a good way to increase wages for workers we would solve a lot of the problem. Do the math and most are doing all they can and still fall short only a small percentage (they estimate about 3%) can better help themselves and that is often an excuse by many to not help as they preceive this as the problem even though most times that is not the case.

          • Justice

            You might think of what is happening in the economy-and thereby to you and your family-in terms of a professional hockey game, a sport renowned for its physical violence. Imagine how the game would be played if the old rules were repealed, if the referees were removed.

            That, in essence, is what is happening to the American economy. Someone changed the rules. And there is no referee. Which means there is no one looking after the interests of the middle class.

            They are the forgotten Americans.

      • Justice

        Once upon a time, the measures served a purpose. Their usefulness today, in assessing the current and future state of Americans at work in a global economy, operating without restraints, is doubtful.

        For the middle class, there are more relevant measures. For example: What is the rate at which new jobs that pay middle-class wages-upwards of $20,000 a year-are being created? What is the rate at which such jobs are being eliminated?

        How much of your weekly paycheck is being transferred to wealthy investors in the form of interest payments on the national debt? What percentage of your paycheck do you have left over after deductions for Social Security and federal, state, and local taxes? How does that percentage compare with, say, the percentage retained by persons earning more than $100,000 a year? What is the rate of job loss attributable to unrestrained imports?

        How much of your paycheck is going for health-care costs? What is the percentage of the work force that will receive a guaranteed annual pension?

        • smilee

          47% of income tax filers do not make enough to even have to pay income tax and many get a cash wage subsidy as a tax refund under the earned income credit so many pay nothing on the national debt but with all the tax shelters and decuctions that only the rich can take advantage of and thus reduce their taxable income so they only pay a fraction by comparison to those left in the middle to pick up the real tab. So your post is not an accurate anaysis.

          • Justice

            Delegated by God. There are four areas where God has delegated authority.

            (1) God has given authority to the family to rule itself. The Bible has given the husband the authority over the wife. The Bible also has given the parents the authority over the children. The little unit, called the family, has been given the right by God to rule itself.

            (2) God has given authority to the local church to rule itself. The family has no right to rule the church. The church has no right to rule the family. The church has been given the authority by God to govern itself.

            (3) God has given business the right to govern itself.

            Free enterprise is God’s gift. Capitalism is God’s gift. It is God’s way.

            (4) God has given authority to the State. When I refer to the state I am referring to Government as a whole. God has given to the state the authority to govern itself.

            God gave the authority to each of these and none of them has a right to usurp that authority. They are not over each other. They are separate from each other. The state has no authority when a parent is obeying God by spanking his child because God has given the family the right to govern itself. God said to spank our children. That command has been given to the family. The state has no right to prevent the family from obeying commands given by God to the mom and dad.

            The church has no right to control the state. The church has no right to control business. Each of these are separate entities.

            The state has no right to control business. That is what is called the free enterprise system. That is America. When America was founded, the Government did not interfere with business. Business has a way of settling its own problems if it is left alone.

            For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us. Isaiah 33:22

          • smilee

            Another who has no understand of constituional law that governs this country that is what is relevant under our law and it prevails in every court house in our country.

          • Justice

            Did you know that Adolf Hitler professed to be a God-fearing Christian? It is true…

            “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

            Scary huh? We are to submit to government as a general rule, for this is pleasing to the Lord (Romans 13:1-3). God hates rebellion against authority (Jude 1:8-10); however, as citizens of the United States, we are entitled to ask questions of our government.

            We pay their salaries. If our government leaders lie to us, hide the truth, commit crimes, and deal deceitfully with us–then we have a God-given right to demand justice. If we don’t get justice, then we have a right to take the necessary steps to change government.

            If you don’t believe this, then you are saying that our founding fathers sinned by revolting against the tyrannical rule of England.

          • smilee

            None of your post responds to my post so will not respond to your nonsense.

    • Linda Shelton

      Dead people get Obama care, welfare and are allowed to vote .

  • Kathy Leon

    Yes and Amen! And. Let us not forget that there creeped into the church some lazy people and Paul told them “you don’t work, you don’t eat!”

    So, certainly every every able-bodied person is expected to contribute to the whole!
    We help our fellow Christians in need; we don’t force taxes on the community to accomplish this. We gives tithes and offerings to God, as it’s all His.

    This is Satan’s game to rob God by robbing the people; yes, it is the most truest
    Definition of socialism!

    • Kevin

      Sorry Kathy, I wrote my comment before I read yours. The quotation you cite is 2 Thessalonians 3:10.

      • Kathy Leon

        Good for you!

    • smilee

      What pecentage tithes? Not every church member. Alsom there are many non christian citizens.

      • Kathy Leon

        Until the hard won fight for America was won, every nation on earth was ruled either by Kings or despots! The beauty of America is individual freedom to pursue ones own dreams without interference by any government. In Anerican the governments job is to protect those freedoms; not remove them!

        And, because “some” among us distain those very freedoms does not mean they get to take our freedom from us! This is what happens when governments force “programs” on us. It’s called totalitarianism. I am an American and I will not bow to the “some” who want to enforce another way of life on us, then the one we choose to live, freedom from govermental enforcement of any “program”. When social security was forced on all many were very concerned. Mainly that they were being assigned numbers as identification. The Congress at that time promised the people that this number would never be used as a citizen identification number. Unfortunately, the people believed and failed to demand in written law. Now, every child born must get a social security number assigned. It use be to assigned only when you first started employment.

        It is so disheartening that “some” among cooperate with this constant loss of our freedoms from governmental intrusion into our lives.

        Wake up Americans, we are unique; the only natinon earth founded by very smart leaders who put in writing that our rights to life and liberty come from God and not from governments. This made us so unique that the phrase “that’s Unamerican” was born; no other nation in the world shares this distinction!

        Wake up to the fact that “some” among us want to take away more and more of our precious, God given freedoms!

        • smilee

          The constitution since day one gave large powers to our government and no total freedoms have ever been the case. Your are not free to murder, rape, not pay taxes, not allowwed to disobey constituional laws, interphere in no ones lives if it does not effect your life etc. Total freedom is anarchy and that was never the case. I do not see government doing anything the constitution does not allow and am very aware many do not like that but it is not taking your freedoms away. Your post makes very clear you hate the powers given government by the constitution when they choose to excercise those powers given them. No one likes every law they wriite but real americans understand this will never be as there are many points of view on freedom not just yours. Your rights come from government not GOD and that is why many laws do not enforce Gods laws as they clearly differ. That is a myth and even Billy Graham has made that statement I heard him say in when being interviewed by David Frost in 1997. I do not agree with every law written but the constitution gives broad powers to write them and as a whole the SC has done a good job of interpreting it albeit they being a human instituion have made mistakes and we as citizens have amended the constitution to correct them. Aftert he civil war people realized the nececssity of the 13, 14 and 15th amendments to protect the individual and the then abuse of some state goverments on the individual which over time has been enforced allowing much more freedoms and lliberty for many more people than before these amendments were enacted. Perfection is impossible but much has been done since 1789 to form a more perfect union, abolished slavery, enforced civil rights ( a work still in progress) womans rights and the right to vote, workers rights, now gay rights and none of these could have happened without government enacting these within the allowance of our constituion. Yes there were some smart men who drafted the constitution and some not so smart and it there were many compromises made by all there and it was a hard sell to the states as this idea was not all that popular with many at the time. It is the best government framework but to work all people have to respect the rights of all other people and not try to deny rights to their brothers and sisters of all stripes just because they do not like them.

  • Drake Travis

    Piper nails it. Also, when people get charity from a church, they get admonished when they use gift$ to buy illicit material: drugs, sex, alcohol and if they won’t clean up their lives, the aid stops. Government socialism lauds all this illicit behavior and encourages it and finances it and protects it – because they believe in it.

    • Kevin

      And Paul states in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, “For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: ‘The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.’”

      • Kevin,
        I would add verses 6-15 to that as it is more than one verse of an issue that was important to early Christians. It emphatically supports Acts 2: 44-45.

      • chrisnfolsom

        That’s great if we all stood by it, but is that our problem? Even the first example Reagan had of the welfare mother was fake – she did not exist. Sure some take advantage, just as businesses do by polluting, going bankrupt etc. So if a family has no money their kids get no education, no food? What about all those people helped by FEMA after a disaster – should they just survive on their own? I am the first to say some programs don’t work well, but you don’t scrap the whole idea because of a problem. I mean war in Iraq was a bad idea, so should we not have any more wars? I know I can never change your mind, but we are all better for our public schools, for bankruptcy protection, for many social programs. How many wall streeter’s got million dollar bonuses after the Collapse in 2008, how many companies and contractors profited – a lot – off of war the last 15 years while our soldiers came back in a box or wounded physically or mentally? Let’s fix broken things, not just throw them away. If not for social programs and “liberal” politics Ben Carson would not be on that stage today, and even though I disagree with him I am happy – very happy, and proud – he is there.

        • Kevin

          Okay, you made quite a few points, but here goes… I think (believe it or not) we probably agree more than we disagree, but, in context, Paul was talking about certain individuals who didn’t want to work, and were quite happy with being given a free handout by others. This does apply to many on welfare today, but of course not all. Regarding if a family has no money for food, etc. Well, that’s where Christian charity should come in, and before big government, it played a very big role. Statistics show that the American people are more generous with their disposable income than any other people on Earth. This is probably due in large part to the fact that we have lower tax rates (as compared with, especially, the European nations), and therefore have more margin (after paying bills) with which to be charitable. Yes, disaster assistance is a legitimate role for government to play. But, social welfare spending overall vastly overshadows what we spent on Katrina. And yes, as a Christian, I would love it if we could just outlaw war. I vote for that – outlaw war. Now convince the ISIS freaks and other jihadist nut-bags out there that we have just outlawed war. Please, let me know how that works out. I was also against the massive bailouts back in 2008, and we clearly did not have the money to do it, but Obama just prints as much money as he wants to spend. Finally, I think corporate “Golden Parachute” programs where some architect of a leveraged buyout gets to retire on millions of dollars while he puts thousands of his former workers out of a job (which usually goes overseas because of the bad trade deals we’ve made), are about as ridiculous and offensive to the common citizen as it gets, but nobody asked me my opinion on that either.

          • jobird

            Amen! Well written.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Thank you for the response and of course as reasonable people we agree on many points, but the devil is in the details, and of course the rhetoric – which is much of the problem. Yes welfare can create dependency, and does, but that does not mean that government programs are all bad, a waste, or that at least education should not be offered – and good education even in poor areas. In the end what matters is that we as a nations use our resources in a way that gives us the standard of living we want, the security we need and will pay forward on the things we need in the future such as education, infrastructure and environment. Blaming Obama for everything, or Bush for everything, or the Democrats or Republicans, or saying they are all bad is ridiculous as they and WE have all had our hands in it.
            One of the largest issues I have with the Right is that they are right and wrong about everything – socialism is bad, but of course we have social programs, or welfare is bad, but giving tax breaks to the rich is a form of welfare, or funding things we don’t like is “stealing” – well, what about funding things I don’t like – is that not also stealing? Things are NOT black and white when you get to it – no person is perfect, no program is perfect, no church is perfect, no marriage/relationship. Even in the constitution – “a more perfect union” – nothing is perfect and to me the ONE thing that allowed our nation to be formed was compromise between states and representatives which is now a dirty word…. until that is fixed we are doomed no matter what our budget, debt or anything is.

          • rothgar

            Welfare and other government supported advantages are fine with conservatives policy-makers provided they go to the right people.

            For example, we subsidize the income of Physicians by keeping foreign trained medical personnel out of practice (no competition) little pricing pressure.

            We support the profits of the Energy sector by allowing them to privatize profits and socialize the direct and indirect costs of their extraction efforts: illness and cleaning up after spills and despoiled environments. Also, we allow the Oil companies to use te depletion allowance to write off their profits against depleted reserves. Really! Been this way for decades.

            Check out “the Conservative Nanny State” for a more thorough discussion of the many ways that allegedly Conservative economic policies are desired to profit selected constituencies.

            You can also see this in the life History and writings of Maj. General Smedley Butler: no liberal pansy by any measure (2 Congressional Medals of Honor).

            We see the same thing in the assault on Iraq and the US-Iranian sabre rattling during the Bush era. Both of these either limited access on world markets or increased market prices due to potential conflict.

            The whole “death tax” propaganda campaign was reversal of an originally Republican idea from the 1920’s that we should not allow the creation of a sustained hereditary wealth class. The US should not create a class of people who never have to work to maintain their lifestyles because of the success of their forebears. Hmm!

          • loran

            Just a small correction. It’s simply “Medal of Honor”. There is no Congressional in the title.

          • rothgar

            Interesting, I see what you mean. The President is directed to award it in the name of Congress which leads to the common usage. Thanks for the correction.

            Given the common usage how do we avoid confusion while still noting the superior level of gallantry that winners have exhibited. Evn knowing better I will probably continue to call the Congressional Medal of Honor.

          • loran

            It’s really not that confusing. People will continue to use this form just out of habit which I do believe is not a bad thing. The meaning is still there.

          • rothgar

            I think we are pretty much in agreement that we both want to credit the winners of this medal for the extreme bravery they demonstrated.

          • loran

            Agreed.

          • Gerald

            When was the last time you went to a doctor and he was American.

          • rothgar

            Oh no you don’t!
            I’m not going to let you get away with a nonsensical conclusion based on sketchy anecdotal evidence.

            Just because someone is not a WASP and/or has an accent does not mean they weren’t trained in Medicine this country.

            I’ve spent much of the last 8 years of my professional life working for/with several highly educated/skilled Vietnamese Engineers who although they came to the US in the 1970’s still have pronounced accents language challenges: part of the reason I work with them is I can understand them better than most. At least one of them is a leading expert in his field.

            Here’s a little discussion of the issue:
            “… it takes years for foreign trained doctors to earn a U.S. license. Some of the safeguards are sensible, like verification of foreign credentials and proving English language fluency. Some are not. Even if a doctor has practiced for years in her home country, she must pass the same exams as graduates of American medical schools, then repeat three or more years of residency and fellowship training.

            Given everything that the United States is doing to keep foreign doctors away, you’d think there would be some evidence that domestically trained doctors are superior. There is none. During the 1990s, a series of studies showed that graduates of foreign medical colleges performed slightly worse on exams than their U.S.-trained colleagues, and program
            heads gave marginally better reviews to domestic physicians. By the turn of the century, however, that gap had disappeared. International graduates now score
            higher than U.S.-educated doctors on many exams.”

            http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/08/doctor_shortage_foreign_doctors_are_just_as_good_as_the_homegrown_variety.html

          • rothgar

            Actually my last 2 Doctors were White Anglo Saxons. I am currently seeking a new practice since the second of those gentlemen retired. Most recently I’ve been seeing an Afro-American Woman who is a PA in a larger practice.

            There’s a little sexism there Gerald – HE!!!

          • Gerald

            I wish people would or could just take a word for a word. Instead of making us change all the signs to make you happy. I would guess you would be one of the people to take an axe to Christmas. And dont say the word terrorist. Lets be politically correct.

          • rothgar

            You are offended because I am pointing out that a Doctor can be a women as well as a man? Really?! Get a frickin’ grip.

            BTW: I eagerly attend genuine celebrations of my Lord and Savior’s birth. I am not a fan of modern capitalism’s exploitation of this event but I participate.

            Sorry, but I am disinclined to say Merry Christmas to people I don’t know because I’d rather not alienate them against the Gospel of Jesus Christ through my words. Equally, I do not say Happy Holiday to those I figure that would offended by that.

            My family were never into the consumerist Christmas because of my Mother’s experiences during WWII. In December 1943, her family had not heard from her Brother for several months and they didn’t know if he was still alive. He was Marine who had been fighting in the Pacific since 1941. Their most cherished thing that year was a letter from him.

          • Gerald

            Theirs no point in talking to you. You dont really want to hear. You are to busy waiting to talk. ,

          • Nicodemus

            FYI: Jesus was born in the springtime. December 25th was the Roman holiday of Saturnalia (worshipping the god Saturn), which the Roman church took over…just like the British Royals adopted the Scottish Stewart Tartan to make it THEIRS and take it away from their enemies as a standard to rally behind (not so different from the homo/liberal/commies re-writing US history to remove the Confederate Battle Flag from national consciousness…or so they thought). That being said…..what the H-E-double-toothpick is wrong with saying “Happy Xmas” to people? Good grief!

          • rothgar

            Other than the Army of Northern Virginia Battle flag, you’ll get no argument from me over any of your historical points.

            My concern about aggressively saying Merry Christmas or Happy Christmas during a period of holiday for people of multiple (or no) faiths is the very real risk of alienating them and making it that much harder for the Holy Spirit to reach them. It’s a matter of being polite and trying to stay out of the Holy Spirits way.

          • Justice

            Evidence suggests that it is low wage rates, not the type of job, that American workers reject. Managers testify that that they hired illegals because their corporations refused to pay wages that would let them attract American workers.

          • rothgar

            Yep that is the story. Henry Ford figured that one out a century ago when he decided to pay his workers more so they could be customers too.

            What I haven’t figured out is in the long run how this race to the bottom works to anyone’s benefit. At some point when enough Americans have been impoverished by these policies demand which is soft today will have continued weakening to the point that the Stock and Real Estate Markets crash and today’s Billionaires heirs will be tomorrow’s soup kitchen denizens. This actually shows up in the pre-1929 crash data in Dr. Milton Friedmann’s Monetary History.

            Through the roaring twenties the Equity markets were growing like crazy while the real economy (that of making and selling things) was slowly drifting downward. Agriculture was in free fall. Eventually reality caught up with the Stock Market.
            Are we really going to let ourselves go through this crap again?

          • Justice

            Most illegal immigrants are willing to work for peanuts, which means that companies are unwilling to pay CITIZENS the higher wages necessary to survive in America today. Why should companies pay American CITIZENS higher wages, when they can hire illegal immigrants for low-wages? Of course, the politicians in Washington are still making millions. We hear talk of how anyone can make it big in America if they’re willing to work. What they really mean is that it’s getting harder and harder to make it these days, and competition has become fierce. I believe that illegal immigration is part of the government’s continued efforts to hide the truth from the American public, i.e., we’re headed for imminent bankruptcy as a nation. By exploiting cheap labor overseas and illegal immigrants at home, and recklessly borrowing from the Federal Reserve Bank, the ruthless criminals running America into the ground are buying time. Things are not what they seem. Common sense tells us that a nation cannot borrow it’s way out of debt.

          • rothgar

            Regretably common sense seems to be leading to the continued rape of the American People and our businesses. The Federal must operate by different rules the individuals to fulfill their role as the flywheel that keeps things going when life turns down.

            For individuals or even businesses a bucket is a pretty good analogy for their/our economic condition. You can only pull so much from it as you put in. This is the common sense that we are inclined to apply to not only our finances but the Federal Government.

            However, when you look at the Federal Government (which sees the net effect of millions of these buckets) the circulatory system of the Human Body is a far better analogy. All of the buckets when aggregated together effectively equate to the blood flow in veins and arteries. To maintain good health and a strong economy that has benefits for many, THE PEOPLE need an adequate blood supply (the FED), a strong pump (high marginal tax rates) and the ability to use the flowing blood to nourish the body (pay off the debt), and guaranteed return of funds lost when Bankers screw up (this has torched our economy several times during the laissez faire period,

            Like Jehovah God had to get Pharaoh to tax his people during good times so they’d have supplies for the coming famine. God the Hebrew Joseph to achieve that goal, save the Families of Israel, and make good on his promise to Hagar that the Hebrews would spend 400 years in captivity.

            Just like the Story of Joseph, the money we need to retire our debt is available in the purses and pocketbooks of Corproations, Plutocrats, and aspiring lordlings. Protected by the absolute opposition of the GOP to any tax increases. Over the last couple decades with ample assistance from both parties money that used to come from income capping marginal tax rates was replaced by money borrowed from domestic and foreign sources.

            Armed with propaganda that ignores the fact that high marginal tax rates only apply to dollars earned once someone has earned 10 or 12 million in a year. There are people who think that the Government wants 94% of every penny. Usually income capping marginal tax rates come with tax rate reductions for people in the middle and at the bottom of the ladder since those people are likely to spend much of their income anyway on goods and services that then need to be produced by others (hopefully Americans – but that’s a story for another day).

            The way the process should have worked was the surpluses that Clinton’s policies caused should be used to pay down the debt accrued during existential or economic threats not returned to the pockets of plutocrats. Surpluses stem from “good times” when Governmental expenses are relatively low and revenues are high. Income capping marginal tax rates help the process by keeping money flowing in the economy – doing things, investing for the future, employing people not sitting in someone’s bank account.

            To cut expenses when demand is soft is suicidal. It is time to invest in jobs that give people the financial security needed to be willing to spend money which is vital to our economy. Once the flow of this money is moving through the system employment picks up, revenues and incomes improve as a whole will rise.

          • Justice

            “We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.”

            – David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991

          • Justice

            Dr. Brock Chisholm was the first head of the World Health Organization (WHO), under the control of the CFR. The same sickos are behind the subversion of America today. We are fast losing our freedoms and right to privacy. How can America remain strong when our laws are flaunted, deliberately violated, and then the criminals are never brought to justice? Illegal immigrants should not be shown any sympathy, because they broke the law. Regardless of any benefit to farmers or corporations, crime is crime. Just because abortion solves an overpopulation problem doesn’t make murder “a good idea.” Just because Robin Hood steals from the rich to give to the poor doesn’t make stealing “a good idea.”

          • Justice

            “Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.”

            SOURCE: Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, “The One Un-American Act” (Nieman Reports, vol. 7, no. 1 (Jan. 1953: p. 20.)

          • rothgar

            And your lovely quote is relevant to what is going on in what way?

          • Justice

            But let’s not just blame the government. Who’s hiring these illegal immigrants as slave labor, paying them under the table? American companies! The government actually encourages the hiring of illegal immigrants by not prosecuting companies for doing so. Every business who knowingly hires an illegal immigrant should automatically by shut down. The company owner and management should be held in violation of the law! Fines should be severe. It’s becoming so bad in America, that large companies are knowingly hiring illegal aliens by the hundreds, knowing full well that the workers have fake documentation. Why do companies hire illegals? To save money, of course.

            But there’s more. Illegals are easily manipulated. If an illegal causes trouble, or a female doesn’t succumb to the sexual advances of an immoral boss, they are threatened with exposure. It is a great evil upon America. These workers DON’T pay a dime in taxes; BUT, they collect welfare, put their kids in our schools, receive food stamps, receive free medical, etc. It is so wrong and un-American!

          • rwp24382

            Socialism is bad, PERIOD! The welfare program in our country was to help the needy, not to keep them in a lifestyle that they can live off of for generations. The government does this to create a dependent class that will keep them in power. If Social Security was created as a fund to take a certain amount of money and put it in a private account for each individual in an interest bearing account; there would be a lot of millionaires right now. The problem with Social Security is that liberals in government think they own every cent of money a person makes. They know how to spend your money better than you do. Therefore, they steal from everyone and dole out what they think you deserve. Sanders thinks the government should be able to confiscate 96% of what you make to give to those that don’t want to work. The more the government steals from individuals, the less others want to work. It kills incentives to do better.

            A prime example of this is in third world or Communist controlled countries. Up until recently, the US had the best health care in the world. People came from all over the world to go to our hospitals, because they couldn’t get the treatments and immediate care they could anywhere else. There are those that say Cuba has free healthcare. Why did Castro go to another country for cancer treatments, if their healthcare is so good? There is NO free healthcare! Somebody has to pay. We are seeing it now in Obamacare. Our premiums have gone up, deductibles have tripled, and now there is less being offered for what we used to get. What happened to the cutting of waste and fraud was going to save everyone $2500 a year? You have to take healthcare or be fined for not having any. This is a mandate with little or no options. Why not put things back as they were and allow more competition between states? Some states only had two choices for health insurance. The government doesn’t want to change this arrangement, because they want to control everyone and make them more dependent on government handouts.

            You said that giving tax cuts to the rich is welfare. If the top 5% of the country pays over 50% of the taxes collected, how is that welfare? When you give family tax credits, by giving people more money than they had taken on taxes, THAT is welfare! Do you realize that the amount of people that have dropped their American citizenship and moved to another country has gone up about 10 times of what it was, since Obama has taken office? Rich people that can afford to just leave our country, because of the unfair taxes. Do you realize the US is the heaviest taxed country in the world? It doesn’t take a genius to figure why they moved. It is the same reason a lot of people in the northern states have moved south; jobs and lesser taxes. It seems business gets the same idea. They go to states with lower tax rates and labor force costs.

            That’s another reason why unions are going under. They have forced themselves out of the competitive workforce market, unless states are forced to use union labor. States have gone along with citizens having to pay for retirements of people that could have participated in Social Security. Now, the amount of money states are having to pay out is exceeding the money states are taking in through taxes. Now, cities and sates are going bankrupt from these promises they made for votes. This is the kind of problems that arise with the liberal ideology. When times are good, liberals want to raise taxes. When times are bad, they want more taxes to cover for what they have already overspent. It is government that is a constant sucking machine that kills the economy the more it grows. It produces nothing in the way of GDP, but will always have its hand out to collect more an more.

            It’s easy to remember the quote of Winston Churchill that said, “Overtaxing the citizens of a country is like putting both feet in a water bucket and trying to lift yourself up with the straps.”. When Reagan took over for the second worst president in history, times weren’t as bad as they are now. There was only 11% unemployment at that time, instead of 30%. Reagan was promised by a Democrat controlled Congress it would cut taxes and spending, when he passed his tax cuts. Revenues went through the ceiling, when the tax cuts were passed. People were allowed to make more, keep more, and the government took in more. There would have been no deficit during his tenure, had the Dems not started spending twice as much as we were taking in. When there was a “so called” balanced budget during Clinton, that was a farce. When the GOP was looking for more cuts to help the economy more, the Dems told the GOP that the savings had already been spent on other social programs and there couldn’t be another cut in taxes. That’s the problem with Congress. There is no surplus in tax money; it will be spent for something else to keep them in power.

          • Gerald

            They need to quit paying more money when people on welfare have more kids. Birth Control

          • rothgar

            Giving Money to those who don’t WANT to work is what the GOP did by overturning the “Death” Tax. Now money that was never subjected to full taxation passes to the next generation without loss.

            Also, you need to learn what a marginal tax rate is.
            BTW: it is the tax rate on the next dollar earned over some threshold.

            THOSE RATES DON’T APPLY TO EVERYONE!!

            RUSH would have to pay but I suspect most if not all of the rest of us – not so much. lower rates.

            What income capping marginal tax rates do appear to have done is kept Corporate money in the economy instead of in someone bank account. These high tax rates make it dumb to pay the huge salaries to a few Corporate Fat cats instead they invested that money in their companies to make sure the company could pay their pensions. The money not paid in fatcat salaries stays in businesses who then hire people to make use of that money to build more business (R&D).

            That stealing as you call it seems to be working pretty well in Minnesota. In the weeks I spent in rural Northern MN I swear almost every business had a “Help Wanted” sign out. the town had spent a couple million to rebuild a local landmark into a Tech Hub.

            IMHO the US consumer economy would suffer hugely without the protection that Social Security provides.

          • Justice

            “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.” -Romans 13:1-2

          • Nicodemus

            Using isolated incidents to try to prove an all-encompassing axiom? yeah, you must be a liberal (i.e. someone who has admirably idealistic goals but is completely incapable of accepting reality or of using reason and logic and who refuses to listen to any viewpoint but their own and would be willing to use violence against anyone who disagrees with them!).

          • rothgar

            Sounds like projection to me. I am a liberal in the mode of JFK and I know the economic realities and even theology that support this form of liberalism.

            Also, if you mean that terribly liberal idea that anyone could accept the Gift of Grace directly from God. Hmm! I like that one too. This blog was about the comments of a Preacher.

            There is 239 years of historical evidence that says that constrained capitalism in a solid regulatory environment with progressive taxation is the best choice for most people.

            If you don’t mind sharing the fruits of America with the most people, avoid disastrous economic crashes, and suffer with higher sustained growth rates, then you want to follow the policies of the New Deal and Great Society. The rich don’t get to quite as rich (so shows like “The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous” aren’t nearly as fabulous), but then again a single person could earn enough to carve out a decent life for themselves and their family even from a Blue Collar job.

            If you want to risk periodic (every 10 to 20 years) economic crashes that wipe out segments of the population then the laissez-faire approach from prior to the Great Depression is your choice.

            If you like the idea of increasing the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, with limited employment prospects for others, or risking running unsustainable deficits then you want the Trickle down approach preached by GOP since its introduction in the Reagan Revolution..

            Those are the facts, reality and your logic challenge.

            No one has been able to show me a year since the adoption of the anti-tax, free trade, trickle down policies when GDP growth was larger in dollar absolute terms than the Federal deficit. There has been a short peiod, but it was when Federal economic policies were closest to Constrained Capitalism (increased taxes, stimulative spending, etcetra) under President Bill Clinton (that is why he HAD to be impeached).

            Prove me wrong but please stop babbling and projecting your deficiencies on my arguments. I don’t appreciate the mess.

            BTW: The Death Tax was a GOP idea from the 1920’s intended to limit the creation of a sustained wealth class that could eventually become aristocracy – anathema.

          • Nicodemus

            The liberal media couldn’t say enough bad things about Reagan’s economics (Milton Friedman)….but it worked! It takes time, but the “trickle-down” created an era of prosperity practically unequaled in US history…anyone who wanted one had a job, salaries were good, etc. Thanks to O’Vomit (and that idiot Keynes), Americans are going to be spending the next 50 years paying off the debt he created in 8! They also ridiculed his space defense plan (i.e. “star wars”). Now that O’Vomit is helping Iran to get the bomb and ballistic missiles….wouldn’t it be nice to be able to shoot them down? Just saying….

          • rothgar

            Sorry but you’ve got your history wrong. Even Obama has not gone full Keynesian – had he none of the Stimulus would have been tax cuts.
            Reagan’s actual economic performance with respect to employment, GDP, and wage growth under performed both Carter and Clinton and probably will underperform Obama.
            Reagan created the appearance of growth and prosperity which a friendly media and plunditry used to gloss over the FACT it was all a Credit Card myth. We were growing by spending deficit spending. (It is called the Double Santa Clause and has been the GOP MO for over 40 years). Over the 8 years that Reagan was president the deficit tripled growing by about 2.4 Trillion which on an annual basis equates to over 3.3% of annual GDP growth came from the FEDERAL DEFICIT due to Tax and Appropriations Bills signed by Ronald Reagan.
            The last year that George W. Bush was President the Deficit equated around 10% of GDP (1.4T deficit vs .a 14T GDP) – that means than since in 4Q of that year the GDP grew by NEGATIVE 6.7% the net effect was an 17% shrinkage in real terms.
            Darn those Real Terms!

          • Justice

            By promoting Illegal Immigration, interracial marriages, religious ecumenism, feminism, homosexuality, and moral decadence in America, Communists are successfully fulfilling the godless vision of sicko, George Brock Chisholm…

            “To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family tradition, national patriotism, and religious dogmas.”

          • chrisnfolsom

            Sorry, if socialism was bad period we would not be a country – we would be bad (period). I agree there are problems, and a complete socialistic government IS bad, but we aren’t even close to that and very few if any want that. Our welfare system is bad and needs to be adjusted quite a bit, but we also need to stop the corporate welfare and work on making money from other countries. I don’t think “the government” has an agenda to create dependence – it is OUR government, and it likes taxes which only come from money coming in – not going out.

            Social Security is and insurance, just like every insurance program we have which pools money and some will use it and some wont – as with ALL insurance type programs. FEMA has helped millions, and millions are better because of it.

            What, Bernie wants 96%??? Where is that – it was Eisenhower who took 91% on income OVER $200,000. Please show me where he wants that – he believes in social principles, but also believes in private enterprise and people making money – he just doesn’t like what has happened the last 6 years specifically where the top 1% have made all the money – much of it paid to try and get us out of the recession…

            I am not sure where you are going with your health care argument as one of the main reason other countries are getting better health care is that they are investing in hospitals and treatments while we have people not even involved in health care making billion – the insurance companies. They run and regulate everything – and take their piece of the pie. We are the only major country in the world that does this – they make BILLIONS, but never cure a disease – we need to get rid of them – period. You said we “had the best health care”, but we also made the most cars, radios, tvs… things change, especially if you don’t invest in them, or waste billions on and industry (medical insurance) which contributes NOTHING to patients or doctors, but an expensive, time consuming example of American Exceptionalism.

            Make millions in any other country and see what they tax you? They may have lower corporate taxes – so they move their countries there, but check their other taxes….

            Regarding Unions – I agree, there are problems with any group and even the best ideas can get screwed up, but that does not mean they are not important. We don’t say “all war is bad” because of Viet Nam, or Iraq do we? Unions MADE the Great Generation. The 40’s, 50’s and 60’s could have never happened without them – sorry. If not for having strong unions we would not have had a middle class, just workers and very rich owners, who would have only been 1/10th as creative. Almost all the technology we have is because of good schools and people who dream which only comes from having a chance which only came because millions had a chance – go to China where workers don’t have as much of a chance. Do you think that GM payed their workers in the 60’s a living wage because they wanted to? Do you think they put safety glass in cars because they wanted to spend the extra money? Companies are soulless money machines which need regulation by “the people” whether by government or union to provide the best products possible. They also need competition, but you know the first thing a company wants to do is eliminate competition – our monopoly laws stop that. In many other countries that doesn’t happen and one company dominates and profiteers and eventually dies.

            Regarding Taxes – our taxes are now lower then ever, but please stop complaining. Why do you want to protect
            Donald Trump – he only can buy so many pairs of pants, so many yachts. Trickle down worked back when you had to employ people to make money, but now we have machines and computers and we can outsource to other countries. A dollar in a billionaires pocket doesn’t make it to a furniture factory in the Ozarks anymore – and they pay less in taxes then they EVER have. Forget about Reagan, that world does not exist. Reagan didn’t have to deal with China, or even Mexico, or even Russia commercially and India was there, but because there was no internet and global shipping and management was in it’s infancy they weren’t much of a threat to middle class jobs. Middle Class America has 3 billion new competitors that our corporations and companies have to use and deal with – and they do.

            The fact is more money has gone to the 1% in the last 6 years then ever – where are all the jobs, all the factories? Tell me how much more money the rich need to keep in their pockets before they will start opening factories here – please let me know before you ask me (our government) to invest.

            Sorry, have other things to do now. Please let me know how much cool-aid I drink.

          • Justice

            “Take away the heritage of a people and they are easily persuaded.” —Karl Marx

          • chrisnfolsom

            So now you believe what Marx says? Marx is not the devil, I don’t believe in communism, but I also don’t believe in monopolies, oligarchies or fascist dictators. There is a middle ground and America is built on that, as with marriage the day you stop communicating, respecting and working together and compromising it can’t work. “A House Divided” speech is as important today with our ideological problems as it was in Lincolns day regarding slavery. I personally think splitting up might be the solution as there is a big difference between slavery, and ideological differences.

          • Justice

            Near the border, migrants discard backpacks, plastic bags, trash and soiled clothes, and leave behind revolting mounds of personal refuse. They cut fences intended to hold in cattle and horses, and many cows that eat the plastic bags left behind die. The immigrants also steal vehicles and saddles, and poison dogs to quiet them. The illegal traffic is so heavy that some ranchers, because of the disruptions and noise, get very little sleep at night.

          • Ricochet

            Why stop with Lincoln’s day, take the house divided alalogy on back to the place where Lincoln got it, Biblical days, or is that against your liberal religion?

          • chrisnfolsom

            I have no problem with “conservative” religion, but it’s hard to pin down as you can pick old testament or new, to either unconditionally love, or the kill. Every religion is vetted through time as to it’s social relevance – if that religion is a detriment it will cease to exist, or morph as with the new testament over the old testament – people didn’t need to fear as much and needed to work better socially as the new testament testifies to – a kinder gentler God who will redeem you. There are many “socialist” ideas in the new Testament, or of course if you read it differently you can justify slavery, racism, sexual oppression etc. The reason I didn’t go back to “biblical days”.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Not sure about a “liberal religion”, but I am very concerned about a “house divided” which is what the two political parties are creating. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/reading-your-bible-makes-you-liberal/

          • Justice

            A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

            Misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State “income” taxes. We call it “paying your fair share”.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Paying “your fair share” is dependent of the environment you are in. If you inherit something, contributed nothing to its creation and don’t spend on R&D, or outsource everything for purely monetary needs or out of incompetence it is not just your business, but the business of the employees, the customers and suppliers – we are all related in many ways. If you want to benefit from a society it’s roads, it’s distribution, it’s technology which allows you to improve things then you owe – sorry. NO ONE lives in a vacuum.

          • Justice

            Abolition of private property and the application of all rent to public purpose.

            The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management.

          • Ricochet

            “I don’t think “the government” has an agenda to create dependence – it is OUR government, and it likes taxes which only come from money coming in – not going out.”
            You should be intelligent enough to realize that career politicians use welfare to buy votes from the masses on welfare and it just builds more and more and it’s bankrupting our country. the red tape, waste, and corruption in government also mean that the welfare problem would be better served by churches and other charities than by government. Besides, giving of your own free will brings blessings, but one doesn’t receive divine blessings via paying taxes under threat of punishment.

            “Sorry, have other things to do now. Please let me know how much cool-aid I drink.”

            Me thinks you’ve already imbibed too much of the koolaid, but
            you’d be the last to know it.

          • chrisnfolsom

            We all drink cool-aid 😉 It’s a delicious drink, although sugar free is better for you… It is OUR government as up to us to fix, or suffer under. If you want to talk about political pandering what about all the “new born” politicians who find god to get votes? Pandering can go both ways and I do feel for many conservatives as you know your ranks are shrinking for many reasons and you generally only win elections in heavily gerrymandered areas, or when democrats can’t, or don’t vote. I want us all to prosper and I would rather work with both sides then pit one against the other. I don’t demonize anyone as we all want “better”, but have different ideas on how to do it – we need to talk – koolaid should be drank together.

          • David Kledzik

            I won’t accuse you of drinking kool-aid, but conservatism is on the rise. Liberalism is the shrinking entity. Hence midterm elections a year ago, and this last years elections, where conservatives were voted in by a 3-1 margin, as governors, state legislatures, and the shooting down of liberal social agendas on the ballots nationwide. And it will probably get even bigger come this November. The pendulum has reached it’s arc, and is now coming back the other way.

          • chrisnfolsom

            You are watching too much Fox – is Trump conservative? Ted Cruz is gone. Midterms are one thing – just because liberals don’t vote in mid terms and are lazier in general doesn’t men that “conservatism is on the rise”. Also, are you speaking religious conservatism, economic, tea party? Not sure what. One thing that has grow is secularism. Trickle down is pretty much dead too – especially if you look over the last 7 years as more money has gone to the 1% then ever in history and the only jobs created are crappy one’s. Where are all the new factories, companies and such??? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/77d060463b1745335d946f983d4c2157e4c32695d31825643c42b8c323817fa8.png

          • chrisnfolsom

            Sorry for delay, but we all drink koolaid. Strange, so all politicians use welfare to buy votes? Like lowering taxes for the rich from 90% (on income over 200,00) in 1960 to 35% today – strange we don’t have any money to pay for schools – like we did, or build roads, dams, go to the moon…. Reagan have 130 of his staff indited, Chaney should be in prison, yes Clinton screwed an intern and lied about it, but that pales in comparison to Billions “given” to Halliburton. I am sure you would not change you mind, sorry for trying to inject some reality… I am not evil, and I don’t believe you are evil, but I do believe the Fear based rhetoric IS evil, and it is heavily weighted to the conservative side of politics these days.

          • Justice

            Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

            We call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

          • David Kledzik

            U.S. corporate tax rates are at just over 48%, the highest in the world.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Yes, the the “statutory” tax rates in the United States are high at 39% relative to our international companies, but the U.S. corporate tax code has so many loopholes—and American companies so good at using them—that the total (effective) taxes actually paid by U.S. is far less.

            The GAO found that large, profitable American corporations pay an effective rate of less than 13 percent in U.S. federal taxes; when state and foreign taxes are included, the rate only increases to 17 percent—much less then the statutory 39 percent. Meanwhile, the Congressional Research Service found that the effective rate here is nearly identical to the weighted average of corporate taxes in the world’s other most developed economies.

            Despite this AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson was quoted complaining that “we have the most uncompetitive tax system in the developed world,” and making a call for lower rates—even though AT&T paid an effective rate of only 6.5 percent between 2008 and 2012.

          • Bimu

            We are a lot more socialistic than you seem to realize. By the time you have federal, state and local taxes…beware. Size does matter – more waste, less accountability, less efficiency. People are to work and produce for their own good not for the institution of government. The founders would role over in their grave if they knew of the way “things” are operating now. Your Constitutional freedoms are being eroded as you breathe. You may not mind it but I do. When your life is sucked out of you or everything you have is second, third and fourth rate, ala, the Soviet Union, North Korea, don’t cry. Freedom lost is very rarely regained or at least without great cost – blood and life. Economically, China has tried to infuse some capitalistic opportunities to its peoples but the restrictions are still great and wealth is relegated to a small percentage of the ruling class, by and large. I could go on but if you like your socialism you can keep your socialism…just enjoy it in another country. After all, we can’t afford to protect the whole world and freedom to and still get taxed out the kazoo and keep everyone happy.

          • chrisnfolsom

            The “founders” would probably look and things and be amazed at what they started. Although of course you seem to know them better then I. I am sure they would side more with the liberals then conservatives who seem to like to go to war when our founders – as if our discussing what we think they wanted has some merit, our founders were isolationists.

            I like aspects of socialism, and am fine with it – go live on a compound if your like, but if you live in America (and the world) you generally have to live with some forms of socialism as we are social beings after all aren’t we? Sorry, I will enjoy myself here, but you are welcome to go elsewhere to live whatever you call the form of life you want – la la land?

          • Bimu

            Do as you please. It’s a ‘free’ country at least for a little while longer.
            You can pick and choose any aspect of the founders original desires as you will but socialism with the exorbitant tax rates, I don’t think so. Loss of individual freedoms and usurpation of state’s rights, I don’t think so. There is probably some good in everything but then again, maybe not !

          • chrisnfolsom

            They were against taxation without representation – not taxes in general. Of course Jefferson was for rewriting the constitution so as to let the country grow and not be held to old arcane ideological arguments based on absurd, changing interpretations as we have today. There are good/bad in many things of course, but the mix of religion and politics was a definite line they drew and I would broaden that to ideological arguments as the biggest lesson I get from what our founders have done was to compromise and unfortunately much of religion/ideology is to stop compromise and make hard and fast rules which is what happened to us in the 80’s when the republicans absorbed the religious right into their party and started having to please all their demands and not allow any compromise which in the end stops anything from getting done which of course if born out in our current government and social gridlock.

          • Bimu

            It is obvious to me that taxes are proportional to services rendered, not withstanding waste and corruption. It is very apparent to me, the founders would not have been taxing very much because they expected the federal government (the government from afar for most of the population, actual or eventual) to be small in nature, small in power over it’s own citizens.
            We can parse words or get to specifics but they were creating something that had never before been constructed for each and every individual. Yes, there were tremendous problems with the Native Americans but you will find the settlers and founders much more accepting of Native blood than in later expansionist years. Isolationism, in effect, we had world policy in our backyard..the British were in Canada and westward, the Carribean, the French in Canada and the Louisiana territory, the Spanish in Florida and west of the Mississippi, Mexico and everywhere else. So the main world players were here. We didn’t need to be concerned with a whole lot else. Our survival as a nation was in no way secure.
            There certainly were ideology and policy differences between the greatest minds…Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Adams to name a few. Washington was shy but a man of the greatest moral character. Religion was not the issue that we have made it out to be. Times have changed but not necessarily for the better nor are we any the wiser. The establishment clause has been greatly overreached and trampled with ideologies that have nothing to do with freedom. One must accept that we as a modern people are not as moral as the founders. Not to say that sexual affairs, etc were not common…but acceptance of ideas, differences of opinion, debate….we have become uncivilized and unhinged. The Founders let each man decide who his God is and how and when to worship – otherwise you have establishment as the National Anglican Church of England that just happened to support and be a part of the kings family. The Founders never, ever sought to throw out the morality of the Judeo/Christian religions as those morals are the basis of our justice and legal system…..lying, stealing, murdering, etc. Civility and honor were needed and expected…where are they now as we have diminished and discarded God from the public affairs of our nation today. Kill the police, lie in court and winning not truth thus little justice. I will admit that Atheism and Islamic pressure was not nearly as prevalent (not even close) as it is today which is causing much conflict but then again, is this debate progress ? Establishment, is one and only, the when, the where, the how and how much, money and time…we have never been in any threat for such incursion.
            The government was not expected to provide “welfare” – eating, shelter, clothing, doctors…all the necessities and sometimes lavishness of life (for lazy or unproductive people). The fabric of the nation was to be governed stateside and locally, not from the centralized federal government. I admit that the agrarian society that has since eclipsed to greatly urban is much more conducive to the original intent. But if committed to the original intent and not the subversion of/by/to non-democratic, non-republic ideologies answers and solutions to founding principles are to be had. If we have not learned from the Greeks and the Romans, even the British, French and Spanish (empires), the Egyptians, the Persians, the Medes, continual Chinese dynasties, Japanese….Downfall is certain if morality and a cohesive national policy are not held. The bull of political correctness, diversity, changing definitions of words and traditional meaning….downfall in progress. You can have diverse cultures integrate but there must be common threads…the language and the law are the greatest thread….and to a degree, God, because if the people have lost their morality and are not much more than selfish, belligerent, demonized beings, you have not more than chaos and death. Just ask the unborn !
            We as a nation have always had problems and issues…it’s called life…living….being human, growing. With life, everything evolves but does not necessarily change as Darwin would presuppose. Unless better nutrition ans food supplies, etc, create new distinct beings, then we haven’t changed since we were created. Just bigger, strengthened…and with numbers, have massive brain power. Why do you link computers, more power, more capability ? Same with people. We are not a perfect people, a perfect nation as the human is not perfect. We have been transformed in the new world order thinking of living forever, of effecting, even controlling the earth, the moon, the stars. Get over it. The created can not be greater than the creator – principle of the universe. Everything is meaningless…ever heard of that ? But it’s not really, it’s all a matter of allegiance…God, family, country. Some things will never change nor can they be….but there is a lot of leeway in forever and never. Be Well !!!

          • David Kledzik

            Sorry, but the Constitution is not a living document. It is a doctrine to set all laws of our country up by. All the Founding Fathers believed in very limited government. As they believed the one and only true function of government was to provide for the common defense, this is made very clear in the Federalist Papers. This massive tax and spend that has put us into a 19 plus trillion dollar deficit is unsustainable. Until we lower taxes and deregulate alot of the businesses will keep outsourcing. That will just keep putting more and more people out of work, and having to depend on the government to provide, hence giving it more power. The nine words that should scare anyone that knows, ” I’m from the government, and I’m here to help.

          • chrisnfolsom

            As we can never know what exactly was meant with every word we have to interpret and we have to apply it to modern situations. The constitution is a living document by most SCOTUS members. You can pick your example and I will pick mine…

            In 1987, Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall delivered a lecture, “The Constitution: A Living Document,” in which he argued that the Constitution must be interpreted in light of the moral, political, and cultural climate of the age of interpretation.

            Now if you are talking about deficits and other issues – that is another problem. IF the 2nd Amendment was literal as we have no militias many of our rights would not apply, and IF we had militias they would be able to have their own nuclear weapons. Anyway, this argument has turned into a “whack a mole” of arguments instead on one or the other. Yes, be happy in your basement clinging to your gun fearing the government is out to get you…

          • David Kledzik

            They dont believe it’s a living document and it was/and is never a living document. The only people that call it a living document are ones using it to suit their narrative at that given motives. Even though Thurgood Marshall used that terminology, later Sandra Day O’ Conner, and now passed on Antonin Scalia said it wasn’t. Just because societies norms change, we still have the basic set of rights which we base our society on. As they say we all are born, and start at zero and progress through our lives. But their is always that doctrine which all our laws are based. I don’t live in fear of anybody, but you as well as I are Free men, and no government may dictate one less equal than the other.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Everything is living as our interpretations always change based on our current knowledge. Look at the Second Amendment… Militias are mentioned specifically, but not an issue today. They had NOTHING similar to a cartridge weapon back then, much less automated. One person with a gun could kill more people with a knife then a gun, yet we apply it the same to modern day weapons which are – for one person – and entirely different weapon. If our founders were around today I believe they would not allow people to have modern firearms as for a person they are too dangerous to a group, but then again you can believe whatever you want – at least the first amendment is still protecting you and unless you want to yell fire, or wave oppressive symbols in peoples faces you can have and say whatever opinion you like.

          • chrisnfolsom

            You have your interpretation, and I have mine. We would not need a Supreme court if it was that easy. Things change and so do interpretations. I am not happy about big government and waste, but to me needless wars are waste, but trying to help students, or helping children who need help pays dividends – and seems the Christian thing to do.

          • Tom Riegle

            Socialism promotes dictatorship—not compromise. Statistics prove big government programs are much more inefficient and corrupt than private enterprises. The liberal democrats and their emperor Obama are the entities that refuse to compromise and are ignoring our Constitution. Sadly, Rhino wimps like Boehner surrender to the intimidation. Thank God for the Tea Party that provides the only alternative to all this madness.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Sorry, you are confused as most of the things our government does use private enterprise. Does our government build bridges? Does it build our military equipment? We do have public schools and military, but they all use mostly products from private enterprise. Management is the issue. Private enterprise runs our medical establishment and we have the most expensive in the world – by many times, and we don’t even cover 1 out of 6 people, and many don’t even go to the doctor because it is too expensive even if they have insurance. We need answers, but just blaming everyone else is BS.

          • Justice

            A newly released study shows illegal aliens cost the federal government over $10 billion a year in services.

          • Justice

            Our leaders are committing their crimes in OUR name, and with OUR money; hence, it is OUR business. It’s time for America’s Christians to wake up! Adolf Hitler was idolized by millions of blind fools as a man of Christian faith (especially by American corporations, such as IBM and Ford Motor Company); while simultaneously murdering millions of innocent people. Hitler was NO Christian and is burning in Hell this moment!

          • chrisnfolsom

            They (“WE”) are also running our country in OUR name. You do know that the “government” is OUR government right? It may not be YOUR government, but that is YOUR problem….. Wow, thanks for bring up Hitler??? Hitler was an ultra conservative fascist, not a socialist, communist or democrat. His allure was to say he was “for the people” as ALL politicians have to say, but he was for himself and his party which he of course did by splitting the country into us vs them – which you should find similarities to when you look in the mirror, or re-read your last comment.

          • Joshua

            Again, sir, wrong. Mussolini was fascist, Hitler was socialist, NAZI: National Socialist Workers Party and he didn’t start the party, he merely took it over.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Agian, sir – you are wrong. Just because some organization has “socialist” in their name does not mean it is being used correctly, or a new leader can use it in different ways – as was the case.

            The Myth: Adolf Hitler, starter of World War 2 in Europe and driving force behind the Holocaust, was a socialist.

            The Truth: Hitler hated socialism and communism and worked to destroy these ideologies. Nazism, confused as it was, was based on race, and fundamentally different from class focused socialism.

            There’s no way anyone can, or ever should, defend Hitler, and so things like health-care reform are equated with something terrible, a Nazi regime which sought to conquer an empire and commit several genocides. The problem is, this is a distortion of history.

            Hitler as the Scourge of Socialism
            Richard Evans, in his magisterial three volume history of Nazi Germany, is quite clear on whether Hitler was a socialist: “…it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth of, socialism.” (The Coming of the Third Reich, Evans, p. 173). Not only was Hitler not a socialist himself, nor a communist, but he actually hated these ideologies and did his utmost to eradicate them.

          • Joshua

            Yet when you read some of Hitler’s quotes about national socialism, he sounded pretty socialist: “What Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism failed to accomplish, we shall be in a position to achieve”. Quote from Adolf Hitler according to Otto Wagener in Hitler Memoirs of a Confidant, editor, Henry Ashby Turner, Jr., Yale University Press (1985) p. 149. Sounds socialist to me. Nazism was about the people (race): “National Socialism is not a cult-movement—a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship. Therefore we have no rooms for worship, but only halls for the people — no open spaces for worship, but spaces for assemblies and parades. We have no religious retreats, but arenas for sports and playing-fields, and the characteristic feature of our places of assembly is not the mystical gloom of a cathedral, but the brightness and light of a room or hall which combines beauty with fitness for its purpose”. Adolf Hitler, speech in Nuremberg (6 September 1938). Sounds socialist to me. And many in this country do realize that some of our politicians have some pretty radical socialistic leanings but are ignored or denied by the ones that support them.

          • chrisnfolsom

            So, you can quote anyone and make it look one way or the other – any book. What did Hitler do? He was for his own people, a fascist. Socialism is about class and evening out the playing field. Hitler wanted to restore the Third Reich and the fatherland. And considered everyone else vermin. To a fellow brother in the Klu Klux Klan they all helped each other – believed in solidarity and their way – they were social to each other. The biggest issue for most fascist is not “socialism” per se as we are social beings at heart (especially to our family members), but to exclude others. A “brother” would do business with another brother over a black person even if they could save money – that is not capitalism and free trade, but racism, fascism.

          • Justice

            The influx is so great, the invaders seemingly trip over one another as they walk through the old copper-mining town turned artist colony of Bisbee (pop. 6,000), five miles from the border. Having eluded the U.S. border patrol, they arrive in small groups of three or four, larger contingents of more than a dozen and sometimes packs of a hundred. Worried citizens who spot them keep the Bisbee police officers and Cochise County sheriff’s deputies busy tracking down all the trespassing aliens.

            At night as many as 100 will take over a vacant house. Some crowd into motel rooms, even storage-compartment rental units. During the day, they congregate on school playgrounds, roam through backyards and pass in and out of apartment buildings. Some assemble at the Burger King, waiting for their assigned drivers to appear. Sometimes stolen cars are waiting for them, keys on the floor. But most continue walking to designated pickup points beyond Bisbee, where they will ride in thousands of stolen vehicles, often with the seats ripped out to accommodate more human cargo, on the next leg of their journey to big cities and small towns from California to North Carolina.

            The U.S.’s borders, rather than becoming more secure since 9/11, have grown even more porous. And the trend has accelerated in the past year. It’s fair to estimate, based on a TIME investigation, that the number of illegal aliens flooding into the U.S. this year will total 3 million—enough to fill 22,000 Boeing 737-700 airliners, or 60 flights every day for a year.

          • Joshua

            I didn’t dispute what you were saying, it is great information. All I did was counter what you said by providing some quotes that Hitler said to prove a point, that he was socialist, even though it was towards his own people. I can now use the info that you gave me along with the info that I read and use that to help someone who wants to learn about that idiot. I did that to give you another perspective into the mind of that mad man. And talk about splitting hairs now, huh? Of course I’ll be social with my family, that’s my social group, along with any friends. But the social that you are wanting to push at the forced expense of everyone else is different. And I will accept anyone who wants to be a part of my social group and I hope that they’ll do the same for me.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Ok, but does your quote “prove” a point, or just give some more information? Should I believe your quote, or all the information from many other sources? You said in your first example that the name of the NAZI party Hitler was leader of was socialist because they had it in the name, which has nothing to do with the reality of his own politics. If we vote for taxes to do things they are not “forced”. You have many option such as moving to a different state, leave the country – there are many things I don’t want money spent on, and I either work to change how it is spent, accept it, or get out. Conservatives don’t get to pick and choose for everyone else – neither do democrats.

          • Joshua

            Yeah, the point being that he was a nationalist socialist. He was sent to spy on the nazi party and instead liked what he saw and became one. That is what happened and there isn’t any denying it. And you hit the nail on the head, Republicans don’t choose and neither do Democrats but Republicans fight out of control spending that Democrats seem to love and you seem to deny. Democrats are pushing a socialist agenda that will ultimately lead to communism, you can deny that all you want too. And yes, it is the Democrats fault when Reagan granted the amnesty because they didn’t uphold their part of the deal. What? you think that I am naive enough to think that some folks that break the law don’t vote Republican? You assume too much about me and remember what the first three letters spell and make you for doing so. There is one thing that you cannot never deny, the Democrat Party is the party of discrimination, lawlessness, bigotry and other things. And I know first hand about what the Democrats are about, I am a minority whose parents were pandered to by those knuckleheads and all we got in return for many was shuttered businesses, abortion on demand, poor education, lack of opportunity and jail. But my siblings and I made something of ourselves through hard work, education and dedication, not accepting handouts, becoming a burden on everyone else like the Democrats expect of minorities. And by the way, just in case you are wondering, My brother is a Radiologist and retired Air Force Reserve, my sister is getting ready to retire from the Air Force (active) and I served fifteen years in the Marines (80-95) got out and my MOS in the Marines was jet engine mechanic, helicopter mechanic, helicopter crewchief and aircrew instructor. I got into aviation when I separated but the industry was going through a lot of turmoil at the time and I wound up being laid off, numerous times. It was rough but I accepted unemployment until I was able to get on my feet, not become a burden on everyone else. But photography was and is my first love and I started a photography business and haven’t looked back. If I can do it without burdening the system so can every other able bodied person. But instead, according to Democrats, it’s ok to be a burden, we’ll force people to pay. Dude, I respect you and your choices, it’s just that I don’t agree with them is all and you of mine. You want someone to dictate to you, go ahead, but not me. You act as if your never wrong as I freely admit that I have been at times. I’m done with you bro.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Jos:Yeah, the point being that he was a nationalist socialist. He was sent to spy on the nazi party and instead liked what he saw and became one. That is what happened and there isn’t any denying it.
            cnf: I don’t deny it, but socialism was not his key, equality among class, but he wanted his own race to be stronger at the expense of others nationalistically and had little care for class equality.

            Jos: And you hit the nail on the head, Republicans don’t choose and neither do Democrats but Republicans fight out of control spending that Democrats seem to love and you seem to deny.
            cnf: I have not denied spending money on social issues and believe we need to – I also believe we need to change things and make them better. I am not happy with the status quo, but I am not willing to say people need no help, or that all help is socialism and bad as social programs have given us much of what we enjoy as Americans – along with a strong capitalistic ethic – BOTH. You can’t just point your finger at socialism or democratic spending. Who spent trillions on a war and then had a tax cut? Should you not raise taxes during a war to pay for it’s expense? I find that a bit disingenuous of a party that is supposed to be so fiscally responsible.

            Jos: Democrats are pushing a socialist agenda that will ultimately lead to communism, you can deny that all you want too.
            cnf: I am not sure how this will happen, and I do deny it. Again, we already have socialism, and taxes on the rich were MUCH higher during ALL of the great generation years. College was almost free then and we built much of the infrastructure we use today, and was the envy of the world.

            jos: And yes, it is the Democrats fault when Reagan granted the amnesty because they didn’t uphold their part of the deal. What? you think that I am naive enough to think that some folks that break the law don’t vote Republican? You assume too much about me and remember what the first three letters spell and make you for doing so.
            cnf: I have to make assumptions – we all do. If I am wrong I am sorry.

            jos: There is one thing that you cannot never deny, the Democrat Party is the party of discrimination, lawlessness, bigotry and other things.
            cnf: You keep saying I can’t deny things – I can. Discrimination, lawlessness, bigotry etc? People of both parties have issues, and really have to use the word progressive and conservative as both parties have gone back and forth as Lincoln was a progressive, but back then was a Republican, but had NOTHING to do with current conservatives – they were the Southern Democrats. So you are telling me that the current southern republicans have less discrimination? That their recent assault on voting rights was to bring blacks and whites together? Both democrats and republicans are basically good people who want America to be a place of opportunity and justice and both look back and would like a simpler life – but then again it was never that simple. I don’t believe any party has a lock on any of the “discrimination, lawlessness, bigotry” assertion you made, none are pure.

            Thank you for your service and your families and I am very thankful you have done well, but as a minority you wouldn’t have the right to serve, or vote, get married if not for a few progressives. Yes, there are issues, but there is no way in this current world we can just give all the money to the rich – and all the power through citizens united and expect anything to trickle down – they don’t need us to make money (they did before), and by the time the middle class is ruined and the Walton’s have tripled their value and the middle class cannot buy anything more and they realize they have been part of a great ponzi scheme and they can pull no more money out of the 99% what will we be reduced to? Government doesn’t make economies, but can help regulate what happens (and has) – Wall Street didn’t see the last recession, and even profited on it… I know of no Democrat that want communism, but some controls are needed and if not the government who – churches? Have a nice day.

          • Joshua

            Thank you for your kind words, Chris. And know this, you have every right to believe in what you do and I will defend that. God Bless if you believe, if not good luck.

          • Justice

            The next time you pass through an airport and have to produce a photo ID to establish who you are and then must remove your shoes, take off your belt, empty your pockets, prove your laptop is not an explosive device and send your briefcase or purse through a machine to determine whether it holds weapons, think about this: In a single day, more than 4,000 illegal aliens will walk across the busiest unlawful gateway into the U.S., the 375-mile border between Arizona and Mexico. No searches for weapons.

            No shoe removal. No photo-ID checks. Before long, many will obtain phony identification papers, including bogus Social Security numbers, to conceal their true identities and mask their unlawful presence.

          • Justice

            Communism has NEVER been established upon faith in God; but rather, upon faith in the government. Without an oppressive government to regulate everything, brainwash children through public schooling, and heavily tax it’s citizens; men naturally tend toward capitalism and freedom. Communism is the end result of an immoral society that abandons God.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Men naturally tend toward profiting for themselves – they love freedom, but for themselves. One of the first things a business does when it can is to eliminate competition, not encourage it – the cornerstone of successful capitalism and free enterprise. It is the society which stops a monopoly from eliminating all it’s competitors, not a company. Power corrupts.

            Again, COMMUNISM IS NOT SOCIALISM. Please stop bringing it up – no Democrat is a communist – there are communists of course, but they are communists, not democrats….. Do you need more explanation on this?

          • Justice

            Despite all the talk of homeland security, sneaking into the U.S. is scandalously easy—and on the rise. Millions of illegal aliens will pour across the U.S.-Mexican border this year, many from countries hostile to America.

          • Justice

            Study: Illegals cost U.S.
            $10 billion a year

          • Justice

            So what we have here are foreigners illegally sneaking into America without any honor, milking the system to rob legitimate hard working American citizens via welfare payouts, committing one-third of all crimes in the U.S., and then blaming America’s citizens for their homeland’s problems. Talk about ungrateful

          • chrisnfolsom

            Well, there is a problem here as immigrants are accused of taking our jobs, but also “milking” which just shows that some are not so good and some are bad, which will always happen. Generally most of the immigrants I see work, and without immigrant (my father from Portugal) Silicon Valley would not have happened, and our fruit, meat, vegetables would not be picked. I think most immigrants are quite grateful. Are there problems – sure, but I see it more as the people who caused our economy to loose trillions in value – and still get their bonuses, or wage war and still make huge profits selling bombs – as their children stay comfortably at home – as a bigger problem. I guess it’s just your perspective.

          • Justice

            Barack Obama has already borrowed more money from the criminal Federal Reserve Bank than all presidents combined since it’s criminal beginning in 1913.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Sorry, wall street borrowed the money – not Obama. If all those conservatives didn’t borrow on principle that would be great, but we know they have very little principle. If trickle down worked wouldn’t all those trillions have triggered more middle class jobs? Hint – it doesn’t work in today’s economy as manufacturing due to automation and over seas competition is not a middle class job anymore. So what is the conservative solution for middle class jobs???

          • Justice

            It’s always a highly motivated minority that defeats tyranny, and never a majority. Likewise, it is a highly-motivated minority that brings in tyranny. A small remnant of patriotic Americans and God-fearing Christians can preserve liberty and freedom. Maybe we can’t stop the New World Order (NWO), but we CAN fight and hinder the Communism that is building the NWO. We should never lay down and accept tyranny. The average professed Christian today is woefully ignorant and thinks they should do nothing. The criminal global elite are tyrants, cowards, using their predatory behavior to oppress the sheeple. Mass-murderers agree… Gun control works! They want you to accept over-the-top corruption and tyranny. All we need to do is expose it all for the LIES and DECEPTION that it is, and don’t be ashamed just because you are in the minority. Truth is ALWAYS in the minority at first, but eventually becomes self-evident!

          • chrisnfolsom

            I agree with the minority statements, but not with all the others as Communism is not an issue to me – are there any communist countries left? Social Democracies seem the way to go in my mind – and in the world. I am for separation of church and state so you can be whatever religion you like and I don’t care, just keep it out of public policy. Power corrupts and today with industrialism, automation and computers the powerful can control MUCH more then ever before – and do. I am confused by the libertarian conservatives who want no regulation, but then again want liberty as the only way to keep individual liberty is to not allow central governments and businesses to get too large which takes regulations, rules, oversight which seem diametrically opposed ideas. Anyway, we are ALL minorities in that we are sub groups of larger groups, families, neighborhoods, professions, religions, sexes, ages and all have to work together – amazing it works at all.

          • Justice

            When you kill babies, saturate your land with homosexuals and forbid teachers from leading children in prayer, freedom and liberty cannot last. Take a sorrowful look at America’s abortion dead as compared to America’s War Dead.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Christmas was illegal in Massachusetts until 1876. We kill babies every day in Syria, many through starvation. Your threats of “freedom and liberty cannot last” are not defended by your statements – oh yes they sound scary, just like the only way to stop gun violence is with more guns “sounds” good, but have NEVER been demonstrated in any society. This is all by the same people who say they would welcome us with flowers in Iraq, among I don’t know how many threats of doom over and over…. I am glad conservatives feel so sure about their beliefs although they need to read and take to heart a little story by Hans Christian Anderson regarding some new clothes…

          • Daniel Wright

            Have you ever wondered why every socailist and Communist country tried to destroy the churches? It is happening here too. I believe that governments do that in order to force the poor to rely on the government for their needs. Most charity was through the church in days past. No churches means no church charities. The solution…….government charities financed by the money confiscated from productive people.

          • Nicodemus

            Why do you think all the Statists in Europe (and O’Vomit) are inviting in all the Muslims (80% of which are young, unaccompanied males)? In Palmyra, they blew up ancient Christian shrines…..just wait until they get a shot at torching all the churches and cathedrals in the USA and Europe….although I have a feeling a few Mosques might be dipped in pigshit before the dust settles…

          • Nicodemus

            I can tell you how that would work….ask the Jews, Gypsies and other non-violent groups that didn’t believe in war and were herded off to camps and murdered by the millions. It doesn’t matter if YOU don’t believe in war….if the other side does. Did you watch Lord of the Rings…. Eyown states that the “women of Rohan learned long ago that those without swords could still die on them”. That was fantasy….but history has many, many examples….I’ve been to the museum in Nanjing and seen the skeletons of the 300,000 or so people raped and murdered by the Japanese because their government had taken their guns away….yeah, and World War I was “the war to end all wars”….yet only 20 years passed and they were at it again….and now the Muslims are exporting Jihad all around the world…..get the point? If you’re a Christian, you know what God told the Israelites to do to end war….kill every man, woman, child and animal of their enemies and salt the ground!

          • Kevin

            I agree completely. I trust that you picked up on the fact I was being a little sarcastic, as in “Please, let me know how that works out…” I also meant it that I would love to live in peace with all of my fellow human beings. The problem is that too many of those fellow human beings want power and control over those of us who want to live in peace, and they want to kill and destroy those who do not bow down to them. I may be a Christian, but I am also a heavily armed Christian who will not go quietly into the night, and I will kill to defend myself and/or my loved ones. Molon labe.
            I almost forgot to mention – I’ve read Iris Chang’s book, “The Rape of Nanking.” Yes, the Japanese atrocities you mention are well-documented. A sickening but educational read…

          • chrisnfolsom

            There was a lot more then just taking guns that took these people over – how many countries WITH guns have been taken over? I like and enjoy guns, but I don’t believe for a second I can protect myself from the US government – that can only be done by leadership, voting and a populace interested in a government of and from the people, not one financed by the 1% and split into parts made to not trust each other and work together to make this the country it needs to be to survive – we are doing it to ourselves.

          • Nicodemus

            Very true….after all, the Austrians VOTED to let in Hitler….but now that we know what happens, time after time, are you going to just let yourself be led away like sheep to the slaughter?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw6A034Yfxo

          • chrisnfolsom

            Nobody said that, I would fight if needed, but I am not going pretend more guns means more safety, and as many gun people do pull away from society and into a bunker. Our founding fathers worked together and compromise was the tool they used – and taught the world about. We are stronger together as a nation. Now we are too strong and people don’t think we need to work together, that we are vulnerable – we are. We have the luxury of not being attacked on our borders for so long no one can imagine it. Guns are great – and we have plenty – but diplomacy is what keeps a society alive. By the time it get’s to guns you don’t have a society anymore – ask Syria.

          • Justice

            TIME estimates, based on longtime government formulas for calculating how many elude capture, that as many as 190,000 illegals from countries other than Mexico have melted into the U.S. population so far this year. The border patrol, which is run by the Department of Homeland Security, refuses to break down OTMs by country.

            But local law officers, ranchers and others who confront the issue daily tell TIME they have encountered not only a wide variety of Latin Americans (from Guatemala, El Salvador, Brazil, Nicaragua and Venezuela) but also intruders from Afghanistan, Bulgaria, Russia and China as well as Egypt, Iran and Iraq. Law-enforcement authorities believe the mass movement of illegals, wherever they are from, offers the perfect cover for terrorists seeking to enter the U.S., especially since tighter controls have been imposed at airports.

          • Justice

            Who are these new arrivals? While the vast majority are Mexicans, a small but sharply growing number come from other countries, including those with large populations hostile to the U.S.

        • JoAnn Dolberg

          The differences are in the mentalities of both the giver and the receiver. Ideally, the giver gives willingly and the receiver receives with gratitude, not with the idea that he is going to keep on taking while expecting others to support him. Christ frees us to help one another; the socialist government forces us to do so. Christ gave us free will to do as we wish, in order that He can judge our works that we do according to the words and attitudes we carry in our hearts. Free will is not supposed to be forced; we either follow Christ’s mandates to help meet each other’s needs, or we go Bernie Sander’s way and make everyone do what we want.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Is not a church run by elders? Do they not make rules on distribution? Is not a tithe a “force” – in some faiths it is a requirement. The government is of, by and for the people. If you want to talk about freedom talk about slavery – endorsed by the church – nothing is perfect. I want my government to help with programs so why is that a problem? You money can go to war and mine can go to feed children – and perhaps some cigarettes from time to time, but primarily for the children, training for new jobs etc. Besides, more white Christians get welfare (and many more $$ per person) then blacks or latino’s by number, not by percentage of course. YES, our programs need to be better, but through government, not churches – sorry.

          • JoAnn Dolberg

            Attitude, Chris.

          • theicecube

            What you say may be true if the tax payers saw a decent return on their investment. When we pay taxes for children to acquire an education only to have some kids disrupt classes so other kids are bullied and interrupted from learning. Some schools are rated as dangerous because of gang members. With public schools being around for many generations poverty should have been mostly wiped out by now but parents dont care. As for the welfare people being paid by the taxes we pay to just keep breeding for generations upon generations. Face it breeding is their job which has become a family business. As far as slavery is concerned the slaves were given lodging (maybe just a shack), food (most of which they grew), Healthcare (probably a veterinarian) and encouraged to breed. Now they have section 8 housing, food stamps, medicaid and welfare. The only thing missing is they are not required to work as they needed to do when they were not owned by the govt. I could go on but that would be as futile as expecting anything to change.

          • chrisnfolsom

            We just spent 4 trillion on war – no tax increase, no real solution, and we have 1000’s killed, many more hurt and injured. Please don’t talk about cost alone. Did it cost too much to stop slavery, let women vote, let blacks vote, to incarcerate 2.7 million people? Many people – over half the country vote for spending money on schools and welfare – are they all happy – no, but nothing is perfect. How many churches waste money? We need better controls, but we also need politicians willing to work together, not just complain and pout.

          • theicecube

            That war was to keep Americans safe from a perceived threat that was building after an unprovoked attack on our soil in which several thousand Innocent Americans died and were injured. Freedom has a cost unless we just raise a white flag and surrender so no one gets hurt. Oh yea were being invaded now and the white flag is already raised but Americans are getting hurt and killed anyway. There was no plan on how to give thousands of slaves freedom which is still all these generations later costing American lives every day. If it doesnt work dont just keep throwing money at it.

          • Justice

            Law enforcement officers today are being brainwashed to view American Patriots and Bible-believing Christians as “right-wing extremists,” and deal with them as “domestic terrorists.” This is serious folks. Wikipedia even defines “Christian Terrorism.” As our government, particularly The White House, advances their global criminal empire (aka, the new World Order), zealous Christians who expose their crimes will be labeled as the criminals instead. This is reverse psychology, and the CIA has mastered the art of PSYOPS warfare, i.e.. propaganda intended to sway public opinion. Don’t believe it? Did you know that Homeland Security actually has a liaison working with movie makers in Hollywood to brainwash the public?! The American public is woefully ignorant of the truth.

            And by the way, I want to make this clear in regards to the above quote from IIR … I DON’T consider the government my enemy! I am simply exercising my legitimate concerns as a taxpaying citizen of the United States, concerning the blatant and numerous horrendous crimes being committed by the The White House administration. This definitely includes the Bill Clinton administration as well. It will be a death blow to America if that lesbian witch, Hilary Clinton, becomes president. Her husband will likely head the UN. The Clintons make Ahab and Jezebel look like saints. How much longer will America’s pastors and Christian leaders remain silent?

          • Joshua

            I clearly remember Obama, who campaigned as a moderate, saying Bush was unpatriotic for adding four trillion to the deficit, so I guess Obama’s almost nine trillion make him a traitor does it not?

          • Daniel Wright
          • Joshua

            Man, what an eye opener. I knew that this President was not fit to lead but the stuff I had read at freedomoutpost.com really affirmed it for me. No President was ever perfect, all had skeletons in the closet and did things that made us all scratch our heads but this current one really takes the cake. I am simply amazed that folks actually voted for this guy, twice!!! Daniel, I guess I am hoping against hope that this guy doesn’t do any more damage in the next 15 months that he occupies the white house.

          • Daniel Wright

            I wouldn’t hold my breath hoping Obama behaves until Jan’2017. I suspect that he might try to impose martial law if Hillary loses.Here is info on her………….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lDN5b6ET0I

          • Daniel Wright

            Here is another Josh………..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKsiDV1LuJA

          • Joshua

            Daniel, again, Thank You!!! I don’t ever want to wish anything bad on anyone unless they truly deserve it but I hope that those two clowns get what they deserve and that’s jail time. I wonder, just how stupid can someone be voting for the likes of Obama or Clinton?

          • Joshua

            Bush is who you are referring to and he didn’t spend four trillion on war, he added a total of four trillion to the deficit and was called unpatriotic by Obama. Now Obama, has added almost nine trillion to the deficit, and our law makers have to raise the debt ceiling again, so I guess that makes Obama a traitor then does it not?

          • Joshua

            You’re certainly correct about many things in your post Chrisnfolsom, but as a nation, we cannot continue to support people who do not wish to support themselves. I believe in a balance, we need certain types of social welfare for example: unemployment, EBT(food stamps), housing and such, for those who truly are in need and for our elderly, physically and mentally challenged. But, when those who are of sound mind and body decide to become a burden on all of us, that needs to be changed. And I think that is were the right would disagree with the left I suppose. Let’s be honest, if I were unemployed, yes, I would collect unemployment benefits, EBT (food stamps), Section 8. But I would also do my hardest to find a job and become self sufficient as well and not become a burden on everyone else. Was I unemployed at one time? sure was and I collected unemployment but, I also found a job so as not to become a burden on the system when there were many more deserving folks needing help. And concerning tithing, yes, in the Old Testament, it was required of God. But, in the New Testament, it is only from your heart what you desire to give as long as you give cheerfully and not grudgingly. Socialism does not, nor has it ever worked and it will lead to more serious consequences.

          • chrisnfolsom

            I agree, but people living high on the hog on “your” dime is not the biggest problem, and to say socialism is bad in all instances and site jobless people , but not recognize all the things – that are socialistic – is wrong. What about the 2.5 million in prison who we pay even more for? We need to make changes to welfare and other “institutions”, but that means change – not necessarily elimination.

          • Joshua

            Sir, they’re in prison for a reason. Now I understand that they are going to get a second chance by being released early here soon and I believe in second chances. However, if they mess it up and wind up in jail/prison again, forget it, no sympathy from me. And many of the illegals being released need to be released back to their home countries.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Please – the “reasons” change, and many are court mandated – anyway the analysis is out that we have too many low level criminals in long term sentences that we are paying billions too much for. It’s not about sympathy, but about balancing the books – we can’t afford it. You also say “they” as if they all will be released early – sorry, 6000, of 2.5 million… You probably couldn’t calculate how small a percentage that is.. Sorry, you are wrong

          • Justice

            We don’t have a country if we don’t have a border! Open borders are an economic weapon against the American people. The Federal government is ignoring the illegal immigration problem, because a group of thug criminals have taken over our government.

          • Joshua

            My mistake, that’s what I get for “assuming” that you knew what I was referencing and talking about. Of course it wouldn’t make sense to release the most harden, prolific criminals. And as I said, the 6000 non-violent criminals deserve a second chance but if they screw this up and wind up back in jail, no sympathy from me. But let us do it wisely where the crime rate won’t trend back up. Because, let’s face it, some of those people are going to go back to what was easy for them in the first place. I am not talking about eliminating anything and no where in my post did you read that. I am talking the same as you, reforming and changing but for the better not because of some societal feelings. And let me answer your slight about me not being able to calculate the percentages, I didn’t attack you sir, I disagreed with some but not all of what you said but I kept it civil. That is proof that when you disagree with a socialist/communist, you get insults.

          • Justice

            In Mark 6:18, John the Baptist preached against Herod’s adultery, “For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother’s wife.” John didn’t set up an appointment to meet with his local precinct captain or house representative. No, he cried out in the streets against sin! John was a protester! I’m all for American protesters, who peaceably take a stand against government evils. Christians are so gullible today. The average Christian has forever engrained in their mind images of pot-smoking long-haired hippies from the 1960’s. The truth is that MOST protesters today are respectable U.S. citizens, who aren’t hippies, who know exactly why they’re upset with their government. Yet, it’s convenient for America’s pastors and Christian leaders to label all protesters as “rebels.” Nothing could be further from the truth. It’s tragic that the Devil has duped today’s believers into thinking that it’s rebellion for Christians to RISE UP AGAINST THE EVILDOERS, and to STAND UP AGAINST THE WORKERS OF INIQUITY as Psalm 94:16 asks us to do? Yes, we are commanded to obey government, which is ordained of God; but we have a right to revolt when our government starts committing crimes against us (and if our founding fathers didn’t believe this, then there WOULDN’T be a free United States today).

          • chrisnfolsom

            Why can you not give/vote from your heart to help others through your government? Why is that not a solution? We help the rich with bankruptcy, tax incentives etc, etc – that is money out of your pocket because YOU have to make up the difference. Anyway, just trying to talk this out.

          • Daniel Wright

            Mandatory raises in the amount the government confiscates from your pay check has nothing to do with giving from the heart. You don’t need to be wealthy to declare bankruptcy. It CAN be used to keep your business afloat. People gripe about businesses filing for bankruptcy but what good it do for it’s employees if their jobs disapeared. Most businesses that file stay in business and pay their debts.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Taxes are necessary for any government so taxes themselves are not the problem, but how much, to who and in what way. You speak of “mandatory raises”, but it is lower now then it has been in 100 years – or more. I don’t gripe about bankruptcy as I think it is a very important program – that can, and is a used by some. But I also believe in many other things my mothers generation had such as good schools, very cheap public colleges among many others. I am not for starting wars, or any other program without showing how it will be paid for…

          • Daniel Wright

            The only taxes that are lower are income taxes There is a myriad of other taxes that make up for it. Corperate taxes are the highest in the world and inheritance taxes are rediclously high. The subject is about which is better,volintary charitible giving or high govrernment taxes to support government programs. The problem is that the government wastes so much on buraucracy. I know of a food program ran by a local church. All the food and refrigerators are provided by local food and appliance stores. Everyone who works there are volinteers.The church pays the utilities and provides the building. Tithes and offerings provide the money. There is not one penny wasted. Isn’t that kind of efficient program a better idea than the food stamp program that eats the majority of its funds through bureaucratic red tape and high government salaries? Do you ever wonder why the churches are being attacked in America. I believe that one reason is that the government eliminating the competition to make people rely on them instead of the generosity of their fellow man. If there are no church programs for feeding the hungry then someone has to step in;right.

          • Justice

            God expects us as Christians to take an uncompromising STAND against crimes being committed by our government. It is because of the apostate silence of America’s churches that America has plunged over a moral waterfall.

          • Joshua

            I agree, we shouldn’t have helped those knuckleheads in anyway when it came to the bailout. I believe that we as a nation waste a lot of money. Bailouts for one, NASA (trying to land humans on Mars) and other stupid research. All of that money could have gone to helping the truly needed, job creation and so forth. So we have common ground you and I. I don’t speak for everyone else, just myself obviously. But, entitlement welfare, which destroyers families instead of keeping them together, I don’t agree with.

          • Justice

            As a parent I love my children and I am going to do everything in my power to protect them. Now what if I had the same mentality towards my children as most believers have today towards the evils they see happening in government? What if I had the mentality… “Well, the Bible said that many would be deceived in the end times, and that children would rise up against their parents, so there’s really nothing I can do. What’s going to happen is going to happen, so why bother. Satan must run his course.” That would be an irresponsible attitude! It is true that Satan will deceive many in these last days (2nd Thessalonians 1:10). It is true that families will rise up against their own (Mark 13:12). However, these facts in no way relieve me from my responsibility as a parent, or a Christian. Likewise, this appropriately describes the horrible attitude of many believers today towards governmental crimes.

          • JoAnn Dolberg

            Absolutely one-hundred percent correct!

          • chrisnfolsom

            I think that the finger pointing is the problem rather then putting your hand on your heart and pledging to the union. How many people don’t consider the government “their” government, or Obama “their” president? This is a huge problem in a democracy as we are undercutting ourselves. I like to look for parallels for government in family and business, and if you have a board of directors or a spouse that would rather battle the whole institution – even over righteous issues, but hobble the whole system to the point that it cannot function at all, or that business partners and friends won’t trust you, or want to do new business with you – that is a problem.

            I believe that is one reason that the founding fathers were VERY specific about separation of church and state – but allowed personal expression of religion. In religion there is right and wrong, and some things you cannot for moral and personal reasons negotiate or compromise on. As they say making laws is like making sausage and you have to make compromises and they are not always pretty, but in the end to survive you at least have to do something – we are currently doing very little in government and as great a country as we are we do rely on trade and the trust of the rest of the world. The more dysfunctional we are, or are perceived to be the higher interest we will pay, the less favorable our business deals will be, and the less tourism we will be.

          • Justice

            Prayer and faith are the two most talked about things in Christianity, and the two least practiced! All across America annual preacher’s conferences are held, but there is no time spent praying. They’ll feature about 10 to 15 speakers, but NO PRAYER. You won’t see an hour set aside for prayer. There is no time to pray. My friend, God majors on prayer, not preaching.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Prayer is nice to reflect and think and be positive, but you won’t win the lottery, learn science, or cure a disease. It’s a tool, not a crutch.

          • Justice

            More than a half-million men and women, including many with growing families, will be dumped into this sinking job market as the Defense Department begins to deal with budget cuts by prematurely discharging military personnel-most of whom had planned on a twenty-to-thirty-year career in the armed forces.

            Local, state and federal taxes will continue to consume a disproportionate share of the incomes of ordinary workers. At the same time, the proportion of the incomes of wealthy Americans that goes untaxed win continue to grow.

            Massive debt loads incurred by corporations and the federal government will require ever growing sums of money for interest payments, meaning less money for new plants and equipment, less money to create jobs, less money to rebuild a collapsing infrastructure-highways, bridges, water and sewer lines.

            Men and women, banking on pensions they believe the federal government has insured, will discover at retirement that their pensions are not guaranteed. Some will receive only a fraction of the promised benefits. Some will receive nothing.

            For the first time since the Great Depression, a growing number of workers will receive no pension at all. At the other extreme, about 20 percent of the work force will receive hefty pensions-in many cases they will collect more in retirement than they earned while at work.

            None of this, it should be underscored, is related to a recession. Because these conditions are structural, built into the economy by the rule book’s authors, they will be largely unaffected by any upturn in business.

          • chrisnfolsom

            I am a vet, and I left because they got rid of repair men and started using contractors – they were paid much more, and my new job repairing electronics was reduced to very basic repairs. It was great to be trained for over a year and work for 3 years repairing services and be reduced – unfortunately/fortunately wars end and we don’t need as many active duty people.

            Taxes are less then they have ever been, pensions are provided by employers at lower levels then ever, or at least before unions helped us get them.

            So what is the solution? To reduce restrictions? To allow the environment to get destroyed? To allow the rich to get more money? How much more do they need (after the last 6 years) to start trickling down all that money and create good jobs?

          • Justice

            Many police officials are fed up with the number of illegal aliens populating American prisons, many of them incarcerated for violent crimes such as murder, rape and robbery. Criminal aliens, who by law should be deported, are instead incarcerated in the U.S. Because of federal bureaucracy and an overburdened system, only the most dangerous felons are actually sent home. Statistics tell the story: About 60 percent of deportation orders are ignored. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants and 60 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens. American taxpayers are paying for the crimes of the 8,000 convicted aliens not yet caught and the incarceration costs of those who have been, estimated to add up to more than $1 billion a year — in just the states that border Mexico.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Many police also hate unions for other people, but love theirs. I will ask police for their opinion, their viewpoints, but they don’t make policy, nor should they. We have others that try to make those decisions.I understand the problem on a larger level. We have more people in jail then any other country, are we that much safer – what are we supposed to do lock even more people up? Is it possible we are doing some other things wrong? We need solutions not bitching. There are still many more US citizens that commit crime – many get away with it. We need to monitor and deal with the situation, but we don’t need rhetoric just looking at the border. Let stop people from using drugs which will stop most of the problem, but then again, money for treatment and programs is socialism and that is a bad idea – let’s just put more guns of the border and build a wall – walls have never worked in all of human history – sorry.

          • Justice

            Illegal immigrants from Arab Moslem countries are not being tracked down. No law enforcement agency cares a whit. No police checks are made. Racial profiling is called bad, though we are told that all nineteen of the September 11th hijackers were of one race, one religion. Our borders are open sieves.

          • Joshua

            I told you already. I believe in some social welfare, helping the truly NEEDY, not the leaches. Helping someone who is unemployed with unemployment benefits, job training and such. Helping our elderly, physically and mentally challenged who cannot fend for themselves in many cases. I don’t mind paying for good public schools, infrastructure and all, because all of those are necessities. But when you start using social welfare as a weapon to garner votes. You don’t sound like that type of person to me. Using our public school system to dumb down our kids, 2+2=5, and the only thing that matters is how the child came to that conclusion using Common Core, really? I don’t think that’s you. and to top it off, suggesting, through Common Core that the Bill of Rights is outdated, is that you? I don’t think so. And in a recent school assignment that had parents fuming: asking children which two rights in our Bill of Rights would they do away with and that they are only suggestions and outdated, that is out right indoctrination of our children. We can argue and go back and forth all day as to why I am conservative or someone is liberal but we as conservatives are fighting SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM. Here are some quotes: “My parents called themselves progressives,” Horowitz explained with
            regard to his communist parents. “The agenda was a Soviet America…the slogan of the communist party in those days was peace, jobs, democracy. Sound familiar?” I don’t care how imperfect the Republican party is with all of it’s faults, I’d rather be conservative than communist any day. And I will end it with this:”Communist Party USA boss John Bachtell boasted in a recent column that his Marxist-Leninist organization, a tentacle of the Soviet regime in America for decades, “utilizes” the increasingly radical Democratic Party to advance its totalitarian objectives in the United States. Writing in the Communist Party propaganda mouthpiece People’s World, Bachtell suggested that, eventually, a “radical third party” would become a viable option to advance communism in America. However, for now, he argued, fending off what he calls the “ultra-right” — essentially anyone to the right of Obama, whom American communists openly backed in both elections — requires the CPUSA to continue utilizing the Democrat Party as a “vehicle.” So now you know why many of us are opposed to and stand against socialism. Oh and by the way, your man in the White House, has a those leanings and history.

          • chrisnfolsom

            You can quote Horowitz, but I don’t believe that, and I believe few democrats do. I can also make other quotes about going the other way. I don’t think conservatives want the rich to have all the money, but what is the alternative these days? Look at Walmart – how has that benefited the middle class in America? It’s a great story – for a few people, and fewer and fewer as they automate and we all know for consumer goods we can never compete with China and many other countries for manufacturing. If Trickle Down doesn’t work, what is the alternative that is being offered?

            I agree that Common Core has issues – there is no perfect system, but Common Core was not a liberal thing, but a bipartisan program – there is a great article: http://www.usnews.com/news/special-reports/articles/2014/02/27/the-history-of-common-core-state-standards
            I am not sure what the “dumbing down” is all about, and I don’t see it as some conspiracy. If you want to get political I believe only one party is trying to starve schools of money.

            If you believe what you say you should be concerned – I just don’t believe those “facts” as I have not seen nothing to prove them. To me “dumbing down” America and enriching our 1% – at the expense of the middle class is more the cause of big business and a conservative agenda that would rather use fake videos to scare people and use religion, fear and rhetoric to scare their followers to allow them to give businesses a free pass to pollute, outsource and get even more money and power into our elections then ever before. I am for tough lover and gutting welfare – for other programs, but I am not for a bunch of minimum wage jobs with super wealthy owners creating the rich and the poor – there has to be some balance one way or another.

          • Joshua

            Man Chisnfolsom, you know, it doesn’t matter to me what you believe or don’t believe. You want socialism, but that isn’t what your man in the White House is pushing and neither is Hillary, they’re pushing communism. I don’t ascribe to communism nor to socialism, that is why we are butting heads. We are ideology different but I do respect your opinions and choices, I would want for you to do the same with me. You spoke eloquently about many things, I was impressed. You berated many for their hard work that lead to great wealth but omitted the fact that Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Kerry and many other Democrats are millionaires. I don’t hear any Democrat ever harping about them. And before I close, Thank You for your service to our country.

          • chrisnfolsom

            First of all no Democrats want communism, socialism is not communism. Just as few Republican want an oligarchy or fascist state. Why do people always go to the extremes? If anything Hillary is pushing socialism, or socialist programs – of which we already have many, and as far as I know most Republicans support.

            I have NO problem with people being millionaires whether they are conservative or liberal – why can’t a democrat be for social programs and wealthy? I am against people who make obscene amounts of money and don’t pay taxes, and the trends we see over the last six years specifically, but over the last 30 where CEO’s income is now 400 times more then average workers rather then the 30x it was 30 years ago – why is that, and is that what we want in our country? Why do many conservatives always talk about the 40’s 50’s and 60’s as it they are the standard, except that they don’t want to pay the 90% tax on income over 200K like there was back then – how do you think we build highways, dams, schools and went to the moon? Of course that is forgetting that back then you HAD to employ people to do things as there were no computers and very few machines in manufacturing – except in agriculture which had huge impacts in the turn (last one) of the century.

            There are many Democrats with money who want more taxes. No one is happy with everything the government does – nor will they ever – and there is huge waste whether you are talking about education, social programs, or the military – we need to work on all these programs. This is a complex issue, split between national and states rights, shifting economies etc, etc, etc. What we don’t need is more money in government elections, more money going to the top, and more sensationalism in media – political or social. I wish you, and us all the best.

          • Justice

            Professed Christians leaders who offer unquestioning support of criminal government, and speak evil of fighting Christians like me who are awake to righteousness, fail to notice Scriptures such as Acts 22:29, “Then straightway they [Roman government leaders] departed from him [Paul] which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.” Do you see… Paul was a Roman CITIZEN, and that entitled him to certain RIGHTS. Those Roman leaders became AFRAID when they realized they had just violated the rights one of Rome’s CITIZENS. As Americans, we not only have rights granted to us as freeborn men, but also by the BILL OF RIGHTS, i.e., the U.S. CONSTITUTION.

          • Johanna Roberts

            Go to bed Chris.

          • Joshua

            I wanted to correct you on something here. It was the Churches of the South that endorsed slavery in the US and any other Church that was predominately filled with Democrats. They call liberals liberal for a reason. Liberals took liberties with the Constitution and with the Bible to endorse slavery.

          • Nicodemus

            And the Catholic churches supported the “progroms” (persecution of Jews) in Europe and were behind some of the worst of the death camps…such as Jasenovac in Hungary:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=513VOo5P63Y

          • Joshua

            Man, that was amazing info, thanks! It’s certainly something I want to show my brother and sister.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Bernie can only do what WE let him – his check book is not big enough (neither is Trumps). So if he “gives” money WE give money. The government is us. We can fix programs, tweak programs, whatever as has always been the case – in america. What is this “forced” thing? Bernie says nothing about you paying more – do you make more then $300,000 a year? If you do great – you have to adj your spending some – sorry. Be happy you don’t live in Europe, or in America in 1950 where you payed 91% on income over $200,000. How do you think we financed The Great Generation? Nothing is free.

          • Daniel Wright

            The 1950s tax rates were a holdover from WW11. They went down and were drastically reduced by JFK in order to stimulate the economy. There WAS a time when Democrats still believed that low tax rates were good for the economy. That was in the past. Nowadays the Democrats think that everyones money belongs to them.

          • Joshua

            Socialism is at the forced expense of others. Force me to pay for someones abortion, force me to finance someone’s lazy life style through welfare and so on. And of course you get the counter argument about the wealthy. But news flash, it isn’t just conservatives that are wealthy, liberals are too. Instead of forcing me to pay taxes for better infrastructure (which I would be more than happy to) and other worth while items/necessities, I’m forced to pay for someone not wanting to be productive and have ten kids, cross our borders illegally and all kinds of other foolishness. When the socialist/communist wannabes the Democrats get a fully communist government, they won’t be happy. When everyone is struggling Soviet Union(Russia)/Cuba/Venezuela style then they’ll finally be happy. And this current President has a communist background and yet they seem to either ignore that fact or don’t care. The sad part is that too many people have been indoctrinated into thinking that socialism is great, not realizing that it will lead to communism and that conservatism will be wiped out because of it. It is only a matter of time I’m afraid and when it’s realized, it’s too late.

          • Daniel Wright

            Neither the Democrat party elite or internet Obama backers ignore his Communist background. (They deny it) and call those who see his true leanings liars and idiots. There is not one major backer,mentor or advisor of Obama’s who ISN’T a Communist, but that doesn’t matter to them.They don’t like the label “Communist” because they know that Communism isn’t popular to most Americans. Most Elitist Democrats back Communism because they believe they will be immune from its detrimental effects. They see themselves as superior to most Americans and beileve that their support for the Obamas of the world will earn them a place ammongst the ruling class. If Communism takes hold in the USA they will have the shock of their lives when they find themselves in the same bread lines as all the people they demonized.

          • Joshua

            Well said!!!

          • JoAnn Dolberg

            I agree that nothing is free. I am saying that we cannot force people to do what they should choose to do themselves. Otherwise, what is the point of free will?

          • Justice

            I know a mega church, which draws over 10,000 people every Sunday, who’s pastor would never go down to the local abortion center to protest. But do you know what?, he eagerly gathered 1,000 church members and headed down to city hall when they threatened to start charging the church property taxes on their numerous buildings. I don’t understand. Does money mean more to pastors than the lives of children? True, but sad, most Christian leaders today are serving mammon and not the Truth. That is what Christianity is all about you know–the Truth. Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6); but the Devil is a liar, and the father of all liars (John 8:44). We are in an information war today, in BOTH the secular and Christian arenas. Lies are everywhere. 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 tells us that billions of people WILL follow the antichrist BECAUSE “they received not the love of the truth…”

          • Daniel Wright

            It is like thinking that you can force someone to love you. It doesn’t work that way.

          • Justice

            Many believers hold the erroneous notion that we are supposed to rally behind the president no matter what his administration does. Many pastors say to their people something along these lines… “Our president is not perfect, but we are to support him because he’s our president. As Christians we are expected to support authority, even when they make mistakes. We should not be critical of our government leaders.” Folks, that is only HALF true! We are not supposed to support a President just because he’s our President. Yes, we are expected to obey authority, even flawed authority, because there is no perfect authority; HOWEVER, when we enter into the realm of CRIMINAL behavior on the part of our elected leaders, that is an entirely different ballgame. If our elected leaders are STEALING trillions of dollars from U.S. citizens

          • JoAnn Dolberg

            The trouble is that most Christians have never learned the difference between good and evil, and either do not know they are supposed to learn, or they are content to ignore these things.

          • Justice

            In any event, the numbers suggest that tens of thousands of criminals, quite possibly hundreds of thousands, treat the southern border as a revolving door to crimes of opportunity. The situation is so out of control that of the 400,000 illegal aliens who have been ordered to be deported, 80,000 have criminal records—and the agency in charge, the Homeland Security Department, does not have a clue as to the whereabouts of any of them, criminal or noncriminal, including those from countries that support terrorism.
            What’s more, those figures are growing. Every day, prisons across the U.S. release alien convicts who have completed their court-ordered sentences. In many cases, the INS has filed detainers, meaning the prisons are obliged to hold the individuals until they can be picked up by immigration agents and returned to their native countries. But state law-enforcement authorities are not permitted to keep prisoners beyond their original sentence. When Homeland Security agents fail to show up promptly, which is often, the alien convicts are released back into the community. In addition to all these, at least 4 million people who arrived in the U.S. legally on work, tourist or education visas have decided to ignore immigration laws and stay permanently. Again, Homeland Security does not have the slightest idea where these visa scofflaws are.

          • JoAnn Dolberg

            Agree. And speaking of the prison system, a lot of our infra-structure repairs could be done at no additional cost to the public if we would just use prison labor for things besides the jobs they presently perform. Doing that would teach responsibility and job skills that might help the recidivism rate go down.

          • Coonhound

            OR end the prison for profit (private prison) industry, and it’s obvious conflict of interest to keep ’em full. These places are usually minimum, some medium security. We need to stop incarcerating people for non violent victim-less crimes. The beacon of freedom should NOT lock up more prisoners than China/Sudan/N.Korea. These institutions and their ‘slave labor’ (often .23 per hour) undermine local small businesses and exploit ‘convicts’ often guilty of harmless drug charges. These prisoners, and the community, would be served better by rehabilitation and work programs.
            Unfortunately these FPP, like the CCA, have deep pockets and lobbyists, as do correctional workers unions, small towns who want jobs from the Prison Industrial Complex. Attorneys, DEA, State DTFs, and other law enforcement benefit too much out of making criminals out of Americans who have a mental health problem . It is a sad situation.

          • Joshua

            As Christians, we are required to pray for our leaders. If a leader commits unlawful acts, we as Christians are not required to follow, only to pray for them. The law which are on the books “legally” we should follow but for all of these executive actions which bypasses congress, I don’t think we are obligated.

        • Franie

          To hell with social programs through the government! Social programs should be administered by my one’s desire to help, not by coercion and under penalty.

          As for “liberal” politics? What an absolute atrocity that it even exists!!! “Liberal” politics are solely responsible for the downward spiral of our once great nation!!!!

          • chrisnfolsom

            You have a Fox stuck in your brain – get it out. We have all been part of the good and the bad. Not sure what is the atrocity, a person who blames everything on someone else, or someone who would actually state such a thing. What I am concerned with is moving forward and to do that we need to work together, not denigrate each other to the point that we can never work together – and the rich are the only ones making money.

          • Daniel Wright

            Welfare programs are designed to keep poor pople perpetually poor. They give you just enough to keep a roof over your head and prevent starvation. They won’t allow you to get ahead. If your net worth gets one dollar above a certain amount they cut you off until you spend that dollar.Then you are totally broke and must re-apply for benifits. It is all designed to provide job security. If poverty were eliminated then there would be no need for welfare workers, [or Democrats for that matter.] The answer……..Keep people poor so you have a job.

          • Franie

            First off fella, I don’t ever watch Fox News, so you’re showing your ignorance right there with your assumptions. Secondly, ‘Liberalism’ is a very selfish and self-centered, egotistical fault that has NO grounding in Godly values, hence an ‘atrocity’. Socialism is a very mentally sick way of correcting the injustices in our society fostered by the democrat liberal progressive twisted mentality. Liberalism truly is a ‘MENTAL DISORDER’ and anyone falling for that crap ought to be shunned by society!! We were put on this earth to be the very best we can be, with the God given abilities to achieve, not sit on our derrière begging or expecting handouts from those who work very hard to survive and support their own families. There are many charities to contribute (tithe) to as demanded by The Lord to help those who truly do need help surviving. It’s high time the democrat twisted mentality wake up and get a clue as to how to function in this society on their own and not view others with a JEALOUS EYE!!! Jealousy is a SIN!!!

          • chrisnfolsom

            You make many assumptions too, so you must also be wrong…. Yes I believe you have the right to believe as you do, and I will pray for the Lord to help in a hospital, but want to have good doctors, I will pray for a child to have food and school, but am willing to pay for it. I will pray someone who is working full time will have enough money to survive, but will try to make sure others will not take advantage of them. We all help children by not allowing child labor, we all help potential criminals by giving them rights and allowing them a lawyer, we all help businesses by allowing them to go bankrupt and stay out of prison. I understand your frustration, but believe we can help and should as our forefathers have – how can you want america to be like it was, but then take away all the things that helped make us great?

          • Justice

            Romans 13:1-2 is often greatly misunderstood. Many Christians interpret this passage of Scripture to mean that we should offer unquestioning obedience to government, even if it’s an evil and corrupt government. This is simply not true. Most people fail to consider verse 3, “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.” Clearly, God is speaking about GOOD government in Romans 13… because they are a terror to evil works, i.e., crimes. But what happens when our government becomes a terror in itself, committing blatant heinous crimes before our very eyes? The Word of God commands us to submit to HONEST government. So why do so many pastors today attempt to lead their congregations into unquestioning loyalty and submission to criminals in The White House? Do you think this pleases the Lord?

          • chrisnfolsom

            How convenient – I guess that works for laws so you can just follow what you want and do what you want according to your beliefs…. That is BS. Of course a bad government should not be followed, and you can always leave or change it, but rules are rules….. You can’t pull this “whatever I like or don’t like crap” – as anyone can then do that… This is the reason that in 1973 the Southern Baptists voted FOR Roe v. Wade as they knew if they put their morals on others through government laws that other religions (Muslims perhaps) could then do the same in the future. Of course they changed their mind, but we all do over time.

          • Justice

            The first thing many police officers ask, when approached by a suspect illegal immigrant, is for their Social Security Number. Of course, the illegal immigrant shuts-up and leaves quickly. These illegal foreigners are living on America’s streets, posing a major threat to society. I heard a recent news report that 42 illegal immigrants were found living in one apartment! Is it any wonder that, In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants and 60 percent of outstanding felony warrants are for illegal aliens? -SOURCE. So the blame also rests upon unethical greedy companies who are eagerly willing to break the law to boost profits and reduce worker complaints. Ultimately, the blame rests upon the American people for not speaking out louder against this great evil. It’s America’s church congregations who should be speaking out the loudest; BUT, they are completely silent. If they won’t cry out against the murderous evils of abortion, then why should they care about anything else? Indifference is destroying America!

          • chrisnfolsom

            You seem to be stuck on immigration – vote for Trump. We need to stop the drug trade, to make it a non-issue. Even if we stop all drugs coming over the border (impossible) we would then drive the cost up so much they will make it here. We need to stop the demand. Sure there are many “bad” immigrants, but what I would really like to do is get Reagan back here so he can create an amnesty program for most of them again so we can stop all this bickering and we can get on with running an economy and living our lives. Trump is disillusion btw. I feel like I am watching a grade school student body election where they promise everything, but of course can do nothing.

          • Joshua

            First, Reagan made a deal with the Democrats. If he granted the amnesty, they would seal the border, but they didn’t keep their end of the bargain did they?

          • chrisnfolsom

            So it’s all the democrats fault isn’t it? Why do so many conservative business owners hire all of them? I guess life is easy when YOU have all the answers….

          • Justice

            My friends, we will have no security, no safety, in our homes and in our communities as long as our multicultural nation is under this staggering assault from within. Why wage war overseas when the real enemy is here, now, among us?

            Six million Moslems live as our “neighbors.” Many are sympathetic to terrorist causes. Tens of thousands of non-citizen Arab and other alien terrorists—no one really knows how many—may now be operating within our borders, organized in cells, preparing bombs, bacteria, and viruses, plotting our destruction. And no one is doing anything about it. How many illegal alien Arabs and other foreigners do you see being deported today? That’s right, almost none!

            In fact, our politicians want it this way. Their “War on Terrorism” is a joke. They’re laughing at you and at me. They’ve got the vast majority of us brainwashed into believing they’re sincere. In reality, they surrendered up this nation to the foreign invaders a long time ago. Yes, the leadership of America is, finally, united. United behind our conquerors: The foreigners in our midst.

          • Nicodemus

            Great Example! Like O’Vomit….the ultimate Atrocity who blames everything wrong with the country on Bush….not on his 8 years of executive orders, attacks on liberty, assaults on US industry…and of course the phony “global warming” crisis…..

          • chrisnfolsom

            Did I blame “everything” on anyone – I never do? Sorry, but all presidents have made mistakes – it is the ass**les who say their shit doesn’t stink that are a larger problem. You want to get pissed at Hillary (and I am) for her emails and yet Cheney had a secret room and meetings with his buddies and even had his attorney arrested. Hillary made mistakes, and you can hate her and her politics, but as far as secrecy and breaking laws Chaney has few rivals.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Sorry for delay – sorry, you need some diverse media sources. No one blames everything on Bush – a fantasy, but to say he had no affect on what Obama has to deal with is insane. Obama will issue less executive orders then Bush, although the number is much less then the content so it is an apples and oranges statement. Regarding global warming there isn’t much to say as I would never go to a surgeon who didn’t believe what 98% of other surgeon did, if you want to believe your pastor over science, if you want to ignore your eyes and ears and wet feet then go ahead, but at some point no one will do business with us, no one will invest in us and if we really ignore science that much we will be all alone with the lights out with a bunch of nukes as we hope for the rapture to save us. A bit dramatic, but so were your previous statements.

          • Strawboss

            You my friend, hit the nail squarely on the head!

          • Nicodemus

            I agree! Ever heard of the United Way? It’s supposed to be voluntary….I was the one person in my office who refused to contribute (I had other charities I supported). I lost my job very shortly thereafter….after 3 years of exemplary service. Yeah, but it’s all “voluntary”….yeah, right…..just ask anyone who was forced into joining a union about how “voluntary” it was to give part of every paycheck to organized crime!

          • Joshua

            Dude, don’t even get me started on unions. It’s just another form of socialism at it’s best. Hey wait a minute, socialism, Democrats, unions? Wow, the liberal trifecta.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Intimidation works in both parties in all ways. The scary people are the ones who think they know everything, but won’t even listen to the other side, or will only listen to each other. I don’t care if you are liberal or conservative, but if you only listen to yourself and your kind you will not last long.

          • Justice

            Who’s to blame for all the intruders? While the growing millions of illegal aliens cross the border on their own two feet, the problem is one of the U.S.’s own making. The government doesn’t want to fix it, and politicians, as usual, are dodging the issue, even though public-opinion polls show that Americans overwhelmingly favor a crackdown on illegal immigration. To be sure, many citizens quietly benefit from the flood of illegals because the supply of cheap labor helps keep down the cost of many goods and services, from chicken parts to lawn care. Many big companies, which have an even clearer stake in cheap labor, aggressively fend off the enforcement of laws that would shut down their supply of illegal workers.

            The argument is getting stronger, however, that this is a short-sighted bargain for the U.S. Beyond the terrorism risks, Washington’s failure to control the nation’s borders has a painful impact on workers at the bottom of the ladder and, increasingly, those further up the income scale. The system holds down the pay of American workers and rewards the illegals and the businesses that hire them. It breeds anger and resentment among citizens who can’t understand why illegal aliens often receive government-funded health care, education benefits and subsidized housing. In border communities, the masses of incoming illegals lay waste to the landscape and create costly burdens for agencies trying to keep public order. Moreover, the system makes a mockery of the U.S. tradition of encouraging legal immigration. Increasingly, there is little incentive to play by the rules.

          • chrisnfolsom

            Controlling all our borders is folly, we can do many things to help, and we already do now mere then ever, but our border is too large to protect 100% no matter what Trump can build. We need border security of course, but we also need to do much more – we are lucky in the USA that it is pretty hard to get here compared to all the European countries. The reality is that many of the illegals fly here first – our Visa program needs lots of work. I personally want to have a national card that is looked up immediately for employers. If people come here and can’t work, or earn money many will not make the journey.

          • Justice

            The U.S. government has been hijacked by criminals! Now, that’s one of your own elected officials, Cynthia McKinney, who said that. She is 100% correct! The Council On Foreign Relations (CFR) is the sworn enemy of America’s sovereignty as a nation. Listen to what David Rockefeller, chairman of the CFR, said about America… IN YOUR FACE! America is being exploited by the CFR to bring to fruition a New World Order (i.e., the Beast system of the coming Antichrist). Believe it or not, it’s happening right in front of our faces. Please read, Communism and the New World Order: Wall Street’s Utopian Hoax.

          • Franie

            In this day and age, Unions are a criminal entity. Unions are a ‘legal’ entity that is permitted to rob and steal the workers wages.

          • chrisnfolsom

            You seem to know what to do, to have all the answers – why don’t you run for office!!

        • Daniel Wright

          It was concervative Republicans who fought and ended slavery. It was those same Republicans who passed all the civil rights laws. What besides hard work got Carson where he is? Do you know he took handouts and got what he has through afirmative action programs? What part of his beliving in right and wrong,freedom and American values do you disagree with?

        • Justice

          Bill Clinton was one of the rottenest presidents America ever had, and even impeached, but yet they honor him. Clinton dodged the Vietnam draft. When he was appointed U.S. president, it was the biggest insult our government and nation ever could have made to every veteran of war. What hypocrisy! This is America today. Whatever decency we once had as a nation and people is gone, gone, gone!!!

          How does a draft dodging, lying, stealing, womanizing, whoremongering, murderous, law-breaking, criminal become an American hero??? Even some of America’s church leaders have praised Bill Clinton’s “spirituality.” It’s not a coincidence that recent U.S. Presidents and certain high-powered leaders have been continually uplifted as honorable men. It’s their bloody reward for playing the game, being accomplices to crimes, keeping their mouth shut, and betraying the American people.

          • Joshua

            That’s the socialist/progressive/communist, I mean the Democrat way.

        • Nicodemus

          People helped by FEMA? You mean the folks crowded into the Football Stadium, after having their guns stolen, who had no water, toilets that wouldn’t flush, and were not allowed to leave (i.e. held prisoner/confined)? Yeah, FEMA really had their act together for that one….

          • chrisnfolsom

            So you make decisions based off of the worst examples – then it’s pretty easy to say nothing works. Crawl in a hole and enjoy your exceptionalism!!

        • Justice

          It’s important that you understand all these things, because illegal immigration is woefully hurting the United States. The godless agenda behind Communism is the ultimate destruction of the family, Christianity, and America’s sovereignty, as a means to achieving a global New World Order. To destroy America, Satan has employed everything from false religions rooted in occultism, to Satanic Rock-n-Roll music. Fornication is the god of Rock music. As a consequence, millions of unwanted pregnancies have led to legalized abortion. Can you imagine… legally murdering little children? This is all part of the Communist subversion of America.

          Illegal immigration is an economic burden upon America’s CITIZENS…

          • chrisnfolsom

            You need to start your own country with your own reality in your own universe… Where you can have separation of Church and State, but be Christian, where you can have freedom, but only the ones you like, and you can have democracy – unless there is something you don’t like. Be scared, as reality is your nemesis, not communism, godless hordes, rock music, or whatever else you fear. Wow. Thanks at least for not hiding under a rock, please get some help.

          • Justice

            Think about how insane America has become. Go to the average church and you’ll be hounded for money, while it’s almost impossible to find a high-paying job anymore. While pastors throw the Scriptures at their congregation to “give until it hurts,” only the pastor and elite members of the church can afford to take trips to the Holy Land (and they sure do!).

            It’s sickening. While America is in a dire financial crisis (caused by the evil Federal Reserve bankers), God’s so-called ministers are vacationing in Israel. It’s a shame. Don’t you feel bad for not giving more money to your church when your pastor drives a new car every year, vacations regularly, lives extravagantly and dips his sails concerning the truth. The average so-called government-controlled 501c3 “church” in America today is a sham and a shame. Christianity is in the heart; not in a building (Luke 17:21). The true Church today has little to do with America’s churches.

          • chrisnfolsom

            I agree on many levels – the prosperity gospel is about as insane an interpretation of the Bible as I can imagine, but then again, when scared people do crazy things, and when ignorant are led to the slaughter.

        • Justice

          After murdering 50,000,000 American babies by abortion, we now have 50,000,000 illegal foreigners coming into our country to make up the missing workforce. Unfortunately, they are so poor that they’re also eating with our food stamps, saturating our hurting schools with non-English-speaking students, living in free Section-8 housing, are getting promoted over citizen’s kids because of racial profiling, are bankrupting our hospitals and then blame American citizens for all their problems.

          • chrisnfolsom

            50 million? Aren’t real facts enough to prove your point? We also don’t have 30 million kids who were not wanted – what is the economic impact of that? I don’t like abortion, but I also don’t like telling people what to do, and don’t think we need more kids around who are not wanted, and I killing in war, or talking of “others” vs ourselves pisses me off – we are all souls with equal importance, to put more on yourself is hubris, which we all have, and have to answer to in the end. Hate is evil and I try to stay away from it. This recent protectionist Syrian bashing pisses me off – although I understand the sentiment, I can’t agree with it.

          • Justice

            If you think Bill Clinton and Al Gore are good men, you’re stupid. If you think Barack Obama and Joe Biden are good men, you’re stupid. I’m not condemning anyone, I’m just saying that Washington is blatantly evil to the core.

            “We’re developing a new citizenry. One that will be very selective about cereals and automobiles, but won’t be able to think.” —Rod Serling (1924-1975)

            The only “CHANGE” we have seen under Obama’s watch is more dead troops, more unemployment, more illegals coming across the border, more lies, more thievery on Wall Street, more reckless debt-spending in Washington, more Americans losing their homes, et cetera. There will be NO CHANGE for the better. There are many striking similarities between our recent Presidents and Hitler. Obama = Hitler? Is it nothing to you that we are being lied to and deceived?

          • chrisnfolsom

            Hitler was not a socialist, not a communists, he was a fascist – I have not seen anything similar to Hitler out of our government. We live in a different world of global economics and automation where the populace is not needed to make things and you can’t have 200 million managers so are we to have all the service people unable to live a decent life and not have families, houses, cars, heal care, retirement? No on is saying a free ride, or service jobs should make you rich, but in general I believe you judge a “people” by how low they set the bar for people in their society to drop, especially when those people are working. In the 50’s without automation and without a global economy people were needed in America to make cars, dig coal, and even to farm – NOT ANYMORE. So what are we to do, have the people serving you living in hovels under a bridge with nothing while those on the top avoid them and find ways to keep even more? It’s all a balance.

        • Justice

          Everything is a deception these days. The illusion of freedom in America will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, the criminal gang behind the New World Order will just take down the scenery; they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater. You will then realize that you were being enslaved the entire time. America has sadly become the land of the cowards and homes of the slaves. Sinclair Lewis rightly said, “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” What a statement!!!

          • chrisnfolsom

            I am not a NWO person, but almost all radical leaders first sell themselves as liberators. Your statement though is a bit damning towards religious conservatives…. extremism and unwillingness to compromise is the enemy of social order and the miracle that allowed our founding fathers to create America. Our leaders don’t talk and are not allowed to compromise – can any group of people survive this way for long?

          • Justice

            People are so gullible that they believe anything they hear from the newsmedia. It’s sad, but true, most people want to fit in with the popular majority. Few people dare stand alone and think independently.

            This is why religious cults flourish in America; namely, our biggest churches. Yes, that is correct, our biggest churches in America have become false religious cults, which support Communism (Barack Obama), deny the inspiration of the King James Bible, support the totalitarian tyranny of a forming Police State

          • chrisnfolsom

            Sorry, you have drank the conservative cool-aid as Obama is a democrat, not a communist – if anything perhaps a quasi socialist (as most of us are). Yes people are gullible – especially if they think that a rich person will help them more then they need them.

      • Pamela

        Amen!

      • rothgar

        UNWILLING TO WORK!!

        So that means people like the Walton Heirs and others like Richard Melon Schaife all of whom are fithy rich and show no willingness to work or should not be sold food or do you worship money more than the word of God?

        In our society only the poor (many of whom are working when physically able) are judged by this verse words when taken literally it is the inheritors of enormous wealth who fit this verse better. UNABLE IS NOT UNWILLING.

        I know very few poor or unemployed folk who are UNWILLING to work.

        • Daniel Wright

          No one is saying that unable and unwilling are the same but you tell be who people are supposed to look to to provide a job:another unemployed person. If there were no rich people there would be no jobs. It’s that simple.

          • Wrong again, it is not rich people who create jobs, it is the demand from a healthy middle class that creates jobs, but that seems to be a common mistake you teabaggers make. 🙂

          • rothgar

            Giving more money to the Rich by definition does not increase their ability to spend. By definition – someone who is rich already has the money they need to meet their needs its just a matter of how long they can go without earning more.

          • Justice

            We are to submit to government as a general rule, for this is pleasing to the Lord (Romans 13:1-3). God does hate rebellion against authority (Jude 1:8-10); however, as citizens of the United States, we are entitled to ask questions of our government. We pay their salaries. If our government leaders lie to us, hide the truth, and deal deceitfully with us–then we have a God-given right to demand justice. If we don’t get justice, then we have a right to take the necessary steps to change government. If you don’t believe this, then you are saying that our founding fathers sinned by revolting against the tyrannical rule of England. I know this will likely offend many Christians, because the average believer today has been brainwashed to submit to authority at all costs, even if it means being victimized and criminalized by that authority. We must say NO to government national ID cards, surveillance, collecting of personal information, and other infringements upon our personal freedoms.

          • rothgar

            Actually most Conservatives have confused UNWILLING with UNABLE.

            Perhaps that is because the UNWILLING are funding the game. For example, I doubt Sheldon Adelson has dealt a hand of Black Jack in decades.

      • rothgar

        I submit that the only people unwilling to work are those who have plenty of money because of the fortune of inheritance.

    • hpinnc

      —–that is the way democrats get in power & stay in power, by pandering to those who wouldn’t work in a pie factory. I think ALL GOVERNMENT AID should end after two kids, unless a woman agrees to name the father & have her tubes tied. Men should be forced to a vasectomy after fathering two illegitimate kids if they wind up on public welfare. We are raising a generation of young people who grow up living in a nanny state as a way of life, with no incentive to get out of the cycle. The government is getting deeper in debt, we cannot continue this way of rewarding this type of life-styles. Not only do we have a nanny state for our citizens that has grown by leaps & bounds under the obama administration, but he wants to fill up the country with more muslims which a huge % of them will wind up a leech on the American Tax-payer. When & Where does it stop? What happened to the work ethic of our country? I realize a lot of jobs have gone overseas, we need to elect officials who will bring those jobs back, remove the regulations & encourage business, not put so much restrictions on small [ or large] jobs.

      • Drake Travis

        you’re reading the DNC playbook loud and clear. They keep doing their enviornMENTAL whine chorus chant about “sustainability” while their modus operandi is 100% UNsustainable [financially, spiritually, culturally, occupationally, ad infinitum]

      • Drake Travis

        psst, brother, may I quote you on the air later today? r.s.v.p.

    • rothgar

      When Florida decided to Drug Test people receiving welfare benefits they found very, very few people (< 1%) who could be denied benefits. Sorry but evidence doesn't support this particular bit of bigotry.

    • Strawboss

      TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN!

  • smilee

    Where does Jesus say government should not provide for the needy, he did not so it is spin to say he said that should not be done. He did say to obey human governments through.

    • EMIRCITNA

      THE ONLY REASON ‘government’ provides for the needy is to…GET THEIR VOTES!!!

    • jonunr

      The only money the gov’t has is what it took by force (taxation) and Scripture is plain- “Thou shalt not steal” !

      • smilee

        Taxes are not stealing ( scriptures also says do not bear false witness or put another way lying) as even Jesus said give onto ceaser and he also said obey human governments so calling it stealing only is a cover for the greedy to get what they want without having to admit they are greedy and uncaring.

    • Galveston1

      Yes, He said to obey human government as long as it does not conflict with God’s government. Human government that does not reward righteousness and punish evil is NOT legitimate government.

      • smilee

        No human goverment has respected God’s laws but Jesus still said obey it.

        • Galveston1

          When the Roman emperor was considered deity, refusal to offer incense to Caesar was a capital crime.
          Christians were martyred because they refused to do that.
          The Apostles refused to obey the local civil authorities when they were ordered to stop preaching about Jesus.
          Paul and Silas were beaten and jailed because they upset the “law” (actually tradesmen who had the officials in their pockets instigated it). Does any of this sound familiar?

          • smilee

            So, what is your point and how is relevant? You missed Jesus’s point!

          • Galveston1

            Did I?
            Jesus answered a “gotcha” question with truth.
            Give God what belongs to Him, and give Caesar what belongs to him. So what happens when Caesar wants what belongs to God?

          • smilee

            Ceaser may want what is God’s but he lacks the power to take it so he then does not get it. No government or anyone can steal your soul and I think that is what God meant give your soul to God and what earthly governments want to them. There is no conflict.

          • Galveston1

            If certain of our forefathers agreed with you, they would never have broken with Great Brittan.
            There would not be a United States of America, and we would be subjects of the King of England.

          • smilee

            Just your personal opinion not true and there is no way you can show factual support for your nonsense,

  • EMIRCITNA

    BOTTOM LINE:
    SOCIALISM destroys INCENTIVE and creates government DEPENDENCY!!!
    CAPITALISM stimulates incentive and creates the opportunity to support oneself to the extent of their ABILITY, without government assistance!!!

    • chrisnfolsom

      Please take an economics class – NO one is talking communism here and even Bernie believes in Free Enterprise, just not the run-away profiteering and top heavy economy we have today. So please stop fear mongering. How much have you profited in the last 15 years? Are you the 1%? When it that trickle down going to start happening? How much more needs to go to the 1% before the middle class get’s a pay day? Please tell me?

      • smilee

        Trickle Down was Reagans’s big lie. It never happened.

        • Galveston1

          Did you ever get a job working for a poor man?

          • smilee

            Did a man ever get to be an employer without employees and without employees he would not be rich and Reagan advocated just that and now a gerneration later it did not happen and we have seen poverty skyrocket and employers get rich and their employees go on welfare suppplement programs to make a living. Sucess as a country is a proper balance and today balance no longer exists due to greedy and uncaring employers. Bring back unions so balance can be restored and we would again see robust economy and much lower welfare costs.

          • Galveston1

            The unions had control of the auto industry, mostly at Detroit for a generation.
            That has worked out so well!
            I think unions served their purpose in the beginning but became as corrupt over time as the politicians that they bought.
            I am glad I never had to contribute to the campaign funds of people whose policies I despised.

          • smilee

            Corrruption goes where the money goes and unions today have little money so most of the crooks now are in corporate boardrooms as thats were the money is, remember “follow the money” . Very little corruption in the unions today as when they had money. You name but one example and do not tell the whole truth there either but the union movement as a whole did a lot for the workeres in this country that for a generation now has been back sliding as have wages and employment conditions. Union money for political reasons does not come from dues and is a separate pac and funded by voluntary contributions. Still on national average union workers get about $800 per month more in wages than non union which means few if any are eligable for the earned income credit and other welfares so common with so many non union workers today and since unions became weakened welfare costs have shot up so today 67% of welfare dollars go to underpaid employees under these welfare programs enacted into law by republicans in the ninties and are the current welfare laws and you do not see unions supporting them so I suspect you do. Compare penisons for retired union members and you will see what a real pension looks like and we have little pension plans today that are adequate.

        • Justice

          For those people in Washington who write the complex tangle of rules by which the economy operates have, over the last twenty years, rigged the game-by design and default-to favor the privileged, the powerful and the influential. At the expense of everyone else.

          Seizing on that opportunity, an army of business buccaneers began buying, selling and trading companies the way most Americans buy, sell and trade knickknacks at a yard sale. They borrowed money to destroy, not to build. They constructed financial houses of cards, then vanished before they collapsed.

      • Justice

        Worried that you are falling behind, not living as well as you once did? Or expected to?

        —That you are going to have to work extra hours, or take a second job, just to stay even with your bills?

        —That the company you have worked for all these years may dump you for a younger person?

        —Or that the pension you have been promised may not be there when you retire?

        Worried, if you are on the bottom rung of the economic ladder, that you will never see a middle-class lifestyle?

        —Or, if you are a single parent or part of a young working family, that you will never be able to save enough to buy a home?

        —That you are paying more than your fair share of taxes?

        Worried that the people who represent you in Congress are taking care of themselves and their friends at your expense?

        You are right. Keep worrying.

  • margie

    I agree with the pastor and anyone living thru the 19th and 20h century are blind or just plain ignorant and do not want to search and find what has happened to socialists regimes in the past, it does not work as man was created to be free to make choices and grow in the knowledge of our creator , countries cannot even run one country [ their own ] now what makes anyone in their right mind think that a world Govt. can do it , is insane..

  • chrisnfolsom

    Sorry, this means little – nice opinion and interpretation, but it comes down to what you want to believe… and we all know the political sides and what they believe – stop using quotes from someone “I am not an expert” to say things. I “am not an expert” too and I say that charity from a government is ok – businesses seem to like it. btw – government IS the will of the people through our representatives and can do pretty much whatever we vote for why do you limit it? Why should only churches be able to help others?

    • jonunr

      Anyone can help anyone that they want to help. It just should not be by
      forcing someone to do it. or by stealing from one person to give to another.

      • chrisnfolsom

        Why do you assume the dollars spent helping a child get food is your money? You money might have been spent in a tax credit helping a businessman save money to buy a boat? There are more then enough people giving money that no one dollar is yours or mine. Much less is it stealing – unless you talk about wall street. Why should MY dollar go to war? It’s a balance as in most things. Do you ever each Chinese food family style?

    • hpinnc

      Yes, government can & should help those who are down on their luck & can’t help themselves, but government can’t keep helping those who refuse to try to help themselves. Businesses? Needs to come to a screeching halt. I do not believe in “too big to fail”. The government should not be in the business of propping up these banks on Wall St., GM & many others.

  • PatriotVet

    The Bible says to render unto Caesar his due. No where does it say the Government should redistribute wealth.

    • chrisnfolsom

      So you think Caesar didn’t redistribute wealth to his buddies? Are you kidding? They were not capitalists in Rome, and “render unto” means what it means – we are just lucky in America that we have some representation – we fought for of course.

      • jonunr

        you are conveniently leaving part of it out, just like Satan does.
        Caesar is not “due” what he is taking by force.

        • smilee

          Never the less Christ said give him what is his and we are a government of representation so the majority agrees with what gov does and that is doing the will of the people.

        • chrisnfolsom

          I think the rich, and the entitled could be though of as Caesar these days as they create super PAC’s and keeping the people fighting each other and limiting others from voting at all. Well if you want to talk about lies, half truths and omission just look at any politician.

      • Galveston1

        This begs the question: In this republic, just who IS Caesar?
        All elected officials from president down are EMPLOYEES of the public, not Caesar.
        That sort of throws a different light on it, no?

        • chrisnfolsom

          No comparison is 100% direct. If you split hairs on anything no one cannot say anything. As Caesar was Emperor he WAS the government. We don’t have an emperor – No Obama is not an Emperor – does that mean that the Bible quote doesn’t apply at all? In that case no Bible quote would apply as there are few direct quotes that apply perfectly to any subject – which of course allows for quotes being used in so many creative ways and why we have so many versions of Christian religions – I do consider some very separate as many condemn the others to hell.

          • Pamela

            Shit, that is what you are doing RINO!

  • EFFJAY

    I consider myself a christian and I believe that socialism and democracy can coexist,
    In fact it does fairly well with social security, medicare, the GI bill etc, I don’t think that Piper is a good representative of Jesus at all.
    If you really think that enough republicans would give up some of their riches and stop trying to
    sabotage what remnants of socialisatic help we provide in America for the less
    fortunate then you surely should be in league with Piper and totally wrong.
    His sort of thinking is the substance of which gives birth to revolution. It is
    sad to say that mindset if it prevails will do just that.

    • Galveston1

      It is common knowledge that SS and Medicare are bankrupt and near the end of their ropes. Socialism seems to work for a time, but it becomes unsustainable due to base human nature.
      Anyone willing to do some basic math should have seen that SS was a ponzi scheme from the beginning.
      And now, the same people are supporting abortion (what, nearly 60 million babies murdered now?), and they like the idea of population reduction.
      Tell us how that can work.

  • cjg

    The idiot answered the question he dont know and baptist have their own beliefs not Gods. There is no such thing as rapture it was made up by a idiot woman look it up yourself. Quit being deceived get your head out of the sand. You want sicialism move the,hell to russia

    • jonunr

      The understanding that there WILL BE e a Rapture existed long before the MacDonald woman thought she had a vision. Paul revealed it. And the word Rapture IS in one translation of the Bible. I’ll let you find out which one.

      • cjg

        No it did not moron you best get a real bible and learn how to read. Its meant for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Obviously you are not one of them. Find it in the hebrew bible and 1611 kjv not whatever your readinf you will not find it there. Prove me wrong. And if man made it up its not Gods teaching. Who do you worship God or man?

    • Galveston1

      You never bothered to read what the Apostle Paul had to say on the subject, obviously.

      • cjg

        No u didnt read it, learn to read what it really says and in refernce to it not out of your simple mind

  • chrisnfolsom

    @cjg – Russia isn’t socialist anymore, and was communist before – are you and idiot? Socialism is what we have here, not pure, but it’s here, and always has been. Are you willing to get rid of police, schools, bankruptcy? You all put up Socialism as an evil, and it can be, just like capitalism can lead to fascism, or an oligarchy, or monopoly. So what is your argument?

    • The Fox

      The police schools are because you commie nut jobs took God out of schools, so blame yourself empty skulled commie nut job, you would be better off in Russia then the U.S. you idiot.

  • The Redman

    white-folks-98%- have ruined the u.s.

    • chrisnfolsom

      So you are saying any other couture, or people with the power we have today would have not made mistakes? I assume from your name you are coming from a native american viewpoint. I am not dissing Native Americans, but it’s hard without horses to do much, to grow too large – they did in South America, but Native Americans in North America if given the chance killed more then they needed, each other and such. I believe their reverence for the earth was more because they couldn’t control it. Human nature – we are all human – is to control, and when doing that you screw up and loose sight of the big picture as we have all done these days. I would love to hope Native American’s would have made better choices, but unfortunately we will never know and to say they would triumph over human nature is a hard pill to swallow and has no basis in fact.

      • The Redman

        Yep. the truth IS “hard 2 swallow” down a snake-mouth in denial of the truth.

      • Galveston1

        I doubt he is Native American. He comes across as BLACK.

    • michael t

      Oh nooooooooooo
      I have found you here again…
      Please leave and share your two braincells worth, elsewhere
      Pleeeeeease

      • The Redman

        Bo-dah

    • Galveston1

      How many farmers did blacks slaughter in Rhodesia and South Africa when they got control?

      • The Redman

        How about dat –lice farm– on top of yo pink head. chester-mo-lester. ha ha ha ha ha

  • pdlane

    Piper along with many of the commenters has no idea what Socialism is.
    If Piper could read multi-syllable words without moving his lips he might read up on the subject… but that would be asking too much from someone who is bent on rabble rousing those who are readily susceptibleto being lead by their nose.

    • homegirl

      Socialism as understood and described by Bernie Sanders=the Scandinavian countries. What is your example of socialism, you should give an example to strengthen your post.

  • The Fox

    Piper is totally right, when the churches were in charge of helping people they gave a person a hand up and not a hand out. Socialism is one step away from communism and the only difference is the communist takes your guns or weapons so you can’t fight their control and socialism trys to get control via hand outs, stealing from one to give to another.

    • chrisnfolsom

      I guess you name implies your information source for you political view… Socialism is what you make of it as is Capitalism, as is Religion as all can be overdone, misdirected and used against the common good. Representation is what’s important and some would rather stop “others” from voting while wrapping themselves in a flag – that is fascism.

      • The Fox

        My name is my real name numb nuts, and Socialism hasn’t worked anywhere in the world if you learned real history you commie nut job, go find a brain for your empty skull.

      • Justice

        Taken as a whole, these are results of the rules that govern the game:

        They have created a tax system that is firmly weighted against the middle class.

        They have enabled companies to trim or cancel health-care and pension benefits for employees.

        They have granted subsidies to businesses that create low-wage jobs that are eroding living standards.

        They have undermined longtime stable businesses and communities.

        They have rewarded companies that transfer jobs abroad and eliminate jobs in this country.

        They have placed home ownership out of reach of a growing number of Americans and made the financing of a college education impossible without incurring a hefty debt.

        Look upon it as the dismantling of the middle class. And understand that, barring some unexpected intervention by the federal government, the worst is yet to come. For we are in the midst of the largest transfer of wealth in the nation’s history. It is a transfer from the middle class to the rich, and from the middle class to the poor—courtesy of the people in Washington who rewrote the rules.

        • chrisnfolsom

          It is the goal of capitalism to concentrate capital at the top, and of course those at the top are happy that way. With a global economy, automation, outsourcing and contracting going crazy since the 90’s there is less need to pay people in the US to make things – the middle class of the Great Generation, i.e. what we call trickle down does not exist anymore. What we have is different today so we need to do different things. Obama has actually helped prove it – although no president actually makes or breaks an economy alone. Over the last 6 years the rich have made more then every…. where are the new jobs? How much more do they need to start the jobs? If you cannot answer that they why should we invest more in the top 1%?

          • Justice

            I am a true America! I am also a true Christian. I hate sin. I think Billy Sunday put it best…

            “I’m against sin.

            I’ll kick it as long as I’ve got a foot, and I’ll fight it as long as I’ve got a fist. I’ll butt it as long as I’ve got a head. I’ll bite it as long as I’ve got a tooth. And when I’m old and fistless and footless and toothless, I’ll gum it till I go home to Glory and it goes home to perdition!” —Billy Sunday

            Sin is destroying America! I love America and will defend it as long as I have the wherewithal to preach. If I can’t talk, then I’ll type. If I can’t type with my fingers, then I’ll learn to type with my toes. If I can’t type at all, then I’ll walk up and down the streets of America with a big sign. If I can’t walk, I’ll sit in a wheelchair and proclaim Jesus’ righteousness. I’ll fight against sin and defend America until I go home to Heaven. Let Satan go back to perdition from whence he came.

  • Scott Harrington

    Forced to pay under socialism, therefore socialism iis incompatible with Christianity? Under capitalism, and non-socialist economic citizens, citizens are also forced to pay taxes, or go to jail. So the argument that going to jail under socialism is wrong to force people to redistribute wealth is wrong, whereas redistributing wealth by giving large tax breaks to the rich and upper income people is okay, as well as not giving any proportionate tax breaks to the poor and the middle class; if you keep the very rich from paying higher taxes, the poor and the middle class will automatically be benefit and will be wealthier, since the money will magically trickle down to the poorest of the poor. That is Christianity; that is “God’s” will; whereas socialism is “evil”. Is this logical? Is this Christian?

    • Galveston1

      About half of our population pay NO income taxes, and many actually get money “back” from taxes they never paid. (EIC)
      Support the FAIR TAX and correct the problem.

      • DOC

        I have paid social security and taxes since was 17 I am now 82 and I still pay TAXES from my retirement pay. They want to cut my social security and no cost of living because of gas prices gone down. Food did not go down they just tell us anything and we dumb asses believe them.

  • JC

    John Piper is right on it—-and let me say that Socialism is just a tame word for Communism—Socialism is Communism

    • chrisnfolsom

      Please stop. You can have your own beliefs – every person does – but you cannot have your own facts:

      Most countries – including the U.S. and U.K. – have government programs that borrow from socialist principles. “Socialism” is sometimes used interchangeably with “communism” but the two philosophies are different. While communism is a political system, socialism is an economic system that can exist in various forms under a wide range of political systems. http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism

      • JC

        Boy—have you been brainwashed—they are one and the same—you cannot have socialism without a political system to support it and that’s exactly what Communism is = dictatorship and tyranny of the people by the elite few.

        • chrisnfolsom

          Boy — have you been eating lead chips — the US has social-ist programs are we communist? Read the damn article, do some research, don’t just parrot extremist rhetoric.

          • JC

            You sound like the CNBC moderators at the so called debate last night—i guess you picked up that crap from them—uh lemming

          • The Fox

            The guy is a robot from the socialist school system and his IQ is right above a dogs, a real left wing nut job for sure and a ego to big for his empty skull.

        • missythemissmiss

          Communism is when the government controls enterprise, while Socialism is when the people control enterprise with the government to back them up. Read some history to find how Russians were fooled into believing that they were living under Socialist principles, but the truth is that they were living under Communism.

          Actually, Capitalism eventually turns into Fascism unless we have Socialism to keep the balance. It’s important that we all stop listening to the media and do our own research.

          • JC

            i see you and Hillary Clinton have been comparing notes with each other— and i am sure that you have picked up that crap from the Marxist democratic party’s MANUAL OF LIES

          • missythemissmiss

            Turn off the television.

          • JC

            Don’t watch TV—but you have picked up some bad habits from Hillary and the Marxist dems—-you may want to cool it for a while on the Internet—you are not very well received here—-but there is always CNN—NBC—ABC—CBS–MSNBC—CNBC and the NYT— they would like to here your Marxist crap.

          • missythemissmiss

            Where do you get the idea that I support Hillary Clinton or that I listen to anything she says? I’m a fan of Bernie Sanders and if he isn’t on the ballot I will either write him in or I may vote for Donald Trump.

            “you may want to cool it for a while on the Internet—you are not very well received here”
            If you don’t agree with me, you think I should stay off of the Internet? I don’t read or listen to mainstream media and the last time I checked, this is the USA, where I’m allowed to speak my opinion.

            I don’t usually point out typos or misspellings, as I choose to focus on the ideas, but you don’t even know the difference between hear and here. I don’t think you should be warning me to stay off of the Internet.

      • The Fox

        You have no facts period, just a commie idiot from hell.

      • Justice

        Caught between the lawmakers in Washington and the dealmakers on Wall Street have been millions of American workers forced to move from jobs that once paid $15 an hour into jobs that now pay $7. If, that is, they aren’t already the victims of mass layoffs, production halts, shuttered factories and owners who enrich themselves by doing that damage and then walking away.

        As a result, the already rich are richer than ever; there has been an explosion in overnight new rich; life for the working class is deteriorating, and those at the bottom are trapped. For the first time in this century, members of a generation entering adulthood will find it impossible to achieve a better lifestyle than their parents. Most will be unable even to match their parents’ middle-class status.

        Indeed, the growth of the middle class-one of the underpinnings of democracy in this country-has been reversed. By government action.

    • Galveston1

      Communism is Socialism under Atheist control.

  • pdlane

    Those who do not understand socialism should refuse to accept their social security checks and tear up their Medicare cards as they are a form of socialism

    • Galveston1

      Right!!
      I paid about 15% in for all my working life, had no choice about it. Now I should refuse to accept the pittance the government hands out??
      If I could have invested that money, I could have retired with some degree of comfort.
      Socialism sucks. Look at Europe.

    • The Fox

      Social Security was a investment for retirement, get a brain, not a benefit of socialism, wow, the nuts are all out today. Medicare paid for by what is taken out in taxes from my income nut job.

  • missythemissmiss

    What do you do when Christians become rich hypocrites who care only about themselves?

    • Galveston1

      When that happens, they have renounced Christ by their actions.

      • missythemissmiss

        Which is why we can no longer depend on the charity of strangers. Why not give everyone the opportunity to earn their own way, instead of letting power-hungry individuals decide our fates?

  • chrisnfolsom

    Please don’t just bang on socialism, you can be a socialist and Christian, in fact being part socialist is implicit in being a Christian. Democrats are not against religion, business, people making money, but they do believe in some basic rights and some of that money getting to the middle class and below. Until the Republican’s co-opted religion in the 80’s the left and the right have been split and having a harder and harder time working together. Our founding fathers kept religion out of the government for a reason, and now after 3o years we can see why as we have two political parties that don’t even talk and are so entrenched in their positions it’s considered bad to talk or shake the hand otthe other side – how can we survive as a country?

    • Tom Riegle

      The founding fathers were devout Christians and expressed their Christian values in the writing of our Constitution. They didn’t keep religion out of the government, they embraced it. It is the loss of Christian influence on the part of Democrats that is causing the divide between the two major parties.

      • chrisnfolsom

        Sorry, that is a fantasy. They were devout in their own beliefs, but if you think they all believed the same read Jefferson’s “Bible”. They were all Christians, but none trusted the Church, or each other denomination and while they talked of God were very careful to keep any specifics out of the government. Many were very wealthy traveled, whored around, drank their times were so different from ours you can’t tell me exactly what they believed so don’t oppress my by quoting what you think of them. And if you think any of theme would sit through a current mega church evangelical sermon I think you are wrong.

        • mjhiggs

          You have been reading too much written by revisionist “historians.”

        • The Fox

          Wrong again egoist, christian’s give a hand up and not a hand out how do you go to the bathroom? He who couldn’t find his butt with two hands and help from your commie friends.

        • Tom Riegle

          You can’t see the forest for the trees. You are getting bogged down in the differences between Christian denominations. The bottom line is that all of the Founding Fathers believed in the basic tenets of Christianity and had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. What church one belongs to doesn’t define who is a Christian. Jesus is just as relevant today as he was in the 1700’s.

        • Tom Riegle

          You can’t see the forest for the trees. You are all bogged down in the trivial differences between Christian denominations. All of the Founding Fathers shared the basic tenet of Christianity—-their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You correctly pointed out the sins of our forefathers. We are all sinners and need the guidance of Christian morality. There are several of their own writings in the Smithsonian that verify the beliefs of individual Founding Fathers. I don’t need to tell you exactly what they believe. They tell it themselves. Do the research.

    • mjhiggs

      Being a Christian and also being a Democrat is incongruous since the Bible clearly is opposed to homosexuality and abortion. The Democrat Party embraces both homosexuality and abortion. Those who are Democrat and claim to be Christians are “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

  • Alex Ferguson

    Though I am no Christian, I understand that the Sermon on the Mount are the only words we know for certain to have been spoken by Jesus, as he saw to it that THESE WORDS WERE RECORDED—all the junk by the “apostles” was written LONG after Jesus was publicly tortured to death at the behest of his dad, God. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus clearly advocates for a NON-Capitalist system. Like Communism, Capitalism has just never worked out where ever it has been tried. Jesus knew this, and so his dad arranged his murder and blamed it on US! Way to go, God—father of the Year, 33 A.D….

    • Tom Riegle

      Alex, please see a shrink—–soon!

  • apzzyk

    This should come as no surprise. Both he and Adam Smith, the father of ‘Classical Economics’, are devout followers of John Calvin, John Wesley, and other early protestant theologians, so they have strangely come to the same conclusion: that Socialism, because it spreads the wealth and power, rather than concentrating it in the hands of the ‘select’, who have shown that they are going to heaven because they have stewardship over so many of God’s possessions relative to the poor, who have to work for salvation, are the ‘good’ ones while those with none or only a few of god’s possessions are doomed.
    The problem with this theology, is that, without the help of government, the wealthy could not survive on their own because eventually the disparity in wealth and power would cause those without to revolt, kill the wealthy and powerful, and then it would begin all over.
    Capitalism is built on several presumptions, one of which is that through ‘enlighened self interest’ the wealthy would care for the poor. Not really ever going to happen voluntarily. While the Koch’s and others do practice it with their own workers by paying good wages, if something does not directly benefit them, then it is off of their list. However, by being myopic, they do not see the value to them of what the government takes their money and does. For example, they own Bounty which makes paper towels and other products, so if their money was not distributed to me in my VA pension checks, I would not be able to buy any of their products, so they would eventually go out of business. They have been opponents of an increase in the gas tax without apparently realizing that the trucks that carry their products to market would not be able to move as far and fast as they do without well maintained roads, which are socialist – owned by the people doing buiness as the government. If the Koch Congress does succeed in reduding the COLA which increases VA pensions and SS and Military Retirement, more of us would have to go back to the good old days of no paper towels, just rags that we could launder. What will happen to the demand for their products if no one can afford them?
    Another of their businesses is Waste Managment, which makes its money because people throw things away. We had no such thing when I was growing up. We just piled all of our waste on some bare land, and lit it on fire. Now the house is surrounded by other houses, so even when I burn wood in my wood burning shop stove, it sometimes hugs the ground and makes it dangerous to drive, so I have to watch the weather and obey ‘no burn’ days.
    In the 1890’s what we found as a country was that basic industries, and utilities were no longer competitive, which meant that whether we wanted to or not we bought Carmagie Steel, or Rockefeller Oil and Coal, and we had to get our telephone service from Ma Bell, because all of these had bought up or out the competition. So we passed antitrust and antimonopoly laws to restore competition, but, for example the government broke up Ma Bell and created the ‘Babu Bell’ some of them or the newer techonolgy of cell phones, cable tv, and others have gotten back together under the new name of AT&T. Which bought Cricket and is now attempting to buy one of the satellite TV companies – without regulation a very few people though their corporations would own all and our prices would go up to what the market would bear. That would mean, and the poor level of the economy we would have to make the tough choice of whether to feed the dogs and cats or eat them.
    Without the other socialistic things such as labor unions, there would be no employer’s contributions to medical insurance, retirement savings, or would there be a minimum wage. Also without their tax money we would have no educated work force which actually does the innovation for these industries. While the Koch Bros probably hold many patents and copyrights, it is their employees, not themselves, who have done the work, for wages, which now makes them richer.
    The Preamble says “We the people ” so it is the people who are the government. and for those who don’t like the government they are actually saying that they do not like themselves. The Koch Bros do not understand the moral of the story of King Midas.

  • Spot on.

    Likewise “- Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

    John Adams

  • Reed10

    I agree 100% on this! Plus, it’s better to do Christ’s work out of desire, not out of obligation. Obligation sucks the fun and joy out of being apart of what Christ wants from us.

  • mjhiggs

    The Bible admonishes us to take care of widows and orphans, but it doesn’t say we should support those who refuse to work. Jesus said that, “The poor will always be with you.” Socialism and communism sound tempting in theory, but they ignore human nature. There will always be those who are going to do as little as possible to get by while others want to do more and work harder to be able to have more. Socialism and communism reward the lazy and punish the hard workers.
    If Christians would tithe as the Lord commands, the church would be able to help all of those who truly need it, but not the lazy.

  • Scott Harrington

    There is a moral difference between people with income under 20,000 a year paying no taxes, and rich people paying no taxes. Or tax breaks for the rich amount to more money than tax breaks for the poor. No form of Christianity can endorse greed, except for Calvinism.

    • chrisnfolsom

      There is also a logical difference between wanting us to be great like in the 50’s through 80’s, but not wanting taxes (70% for the rich), or unions (35% them 7%now). Also, forgetting 3 billion people in Russia, China and the rest of the world were either Communist, or to poor, or too isolated (we couldn’t ship cheaply) back then and were not in the labor pool.. The world economy and automation has changed everything – especially for the middle and lower middle class. When you change the game you have to change the rules or you are just playing with yourself.

  • David Hensch

    Hit the nail on the head! 2 Thessalonians those not willing to won’t eat. That m3ans doing what you CAN not sitting around doing nothing to improve your life & wasting your life with drugs & alcohol!!!!

  • Scott Harrington

    It was the “democratic” (sic) capitalist America, not communist Soviet union or fascist Hitler’s Germany, that produced nuclear weapons of mass destruction. The USA is responsible for letting Soviet spies steal our atomic secrets.

    • chrisnfolsom

      Well of course we used scientists from Hitlers Germany to create those bombs – and ICBM’s and go to the moon…. Its was also the Democratic, Socialistic, Free Market Capitalists btw – taxes were 91% (over $200k) on the wealthy in the 50%’s. So pick your facts and apply them as you like, but the answers are always more complex.

  • Harold Sammons

    Socialism sure has worked out well throughout history, hasn’t it?

  • Peter

    “Tenets” not “tenants”!!!

  • jobird

    Absolute, with out reservation I believe the Bible and God’s word

  • kibitzer3

    Well noted, John.

    It goes to human dignity. We are not automatons of the state. We are spiritual beings having a human experience, among which experiences is the occasional – perennial? – threat to our free will, by people who would love to control us, to within an inch of our lives, as their cattle. Think the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao.

    Thanks, no thanks. Been there. Done that. No need to play that tape again. Hopefully learned that lesson.

  • Franie

    Damn right I agree!!!!! He’s spot on with his assessment between Christianity and socialism.

  • Texsheva

    Absolutely. Great response…..and why all believers are to help each other.

  • rothgar

    The problem with this Pastor’s attempt using the Bible to justify denying the provision of a social safety net is he ignores the vastly different Political and Economic Systems we live under compared to the Romans (and those under any Authoritarian Government like a Monarchy).

    You can get away with saying I don’t want the government to provide charity when that government represents the decisions of a few (nobles, royalty, emperor, …). However, the US Government is based on “We the People”. Therefore, the budget decisions (taxes, charity, etc) are reflections of our collective morality. So, in a Country such as USA that claims a majority of Christian tax payers, welfare and other means of helping the disadvantaged are a reflection of Christian Charity.

    As we saw in the 2008 crisis there were many Church based and other charities that suddenly found their best donors in as dire need as anyone they’d ever helped.

  • thekidde

    I’m with Bernie. The pastor’s simplistic view is, at best, ignorant of the realities we live in. I suppose he hates our roads, water, air safety, electric grid, natural gas availability, shelters for the homeless, social security, etc. All “socialist”.

    • theicecube

      Except everything you listed with the exception of homeless shelters is for all Americans to enjoy as they help the country thrive. The homeless shelters do nothing to expand the economy or help the homeless progress. Also if you work you pay into social security so that money is actually yours to use at retirement.

  • Gary Bangstad

    The good pastor is spot on. Most people don’t know what socialism is and easily fall prey to the politician who promises them everything — the libtard. EVERYONE should read the “Politically Incorrect Guide to Socialism. It is a fascinating book.

  • ChuckW

    The principle of non-coercion is central. God isn’t going to force anyone into heaven against their will. Jesus didn’t twist any of his followers arms to follow him. When he started teaching things that were hard for some of his followers to deal with, some began leaving. Jesus didn’t attempt to coerce them to stay. He simply looked at Peter and said “Don’t you want to go, too?”. Peter replied “No, Lord. Where would I go? You have the words of life.”
    Our founders established a government (like no other in history) based on this principle, wherein “We, the people” granted very limited powers to government. The Declaration of Independence declared “self-evident” truths, including “that we are endowed by our Creator” with certain “inalienable” (God-given, not government-given) rights including “liberty”. That is the right/freedom to make our own freewill choices whether others agree or not. Freewill choice is the essence of individual liberty.
    What we see now is that as the size and power of government increases, individual liberty decreases. Government says “We will make that decision. You must obey.” Whether you call it socialism or any other name, the use of coercion in the cause of the “greater good” inevitably destroys liberty and ultimately leads to self-destruction. Coercion is antithetical to God’s ways and to the principles on which the United States was founded.

  • tommie

    The biggest supporters of socialism are the freeloaders. It didn’t work at Plymouth Rock when the Pilgrims tried it, for the same reason.
    Also, how can your compassion be tested when you’re coerced into giving?
    And the government is the most inept and inefficient organization of any body of people!

  • JOHN STEEL

    Sanders is a far cry from a president of the great nation. he should go to Russia and help them, bring back their social government. leave us alone.

  • JOHN STEEL

    BLUE lives matter…..With out the color BLUE in our streets ,the color would turn to RED.

  • JOHN STEEL

    ALL LIVES MATTER ,EXCEPT WHEN ONE IS TRYINGTO TAKE ANOTHERS. then that life should be separated from the rest. legally.

  • Scott Harrington

    A 91 percent tax on the rich is insane, and is no argument for a sane, just, high tax on the rich. 91 is too high. O taxes on the rich is too low.

  • ADRoberts

    It would appear that you need to ignore Piper. He has twisted the scriptures to say what they don’t say. He references the church in first days. And they were socialistic. And it did not last because they RAN OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY. No where does it say that the church is to do all of these things. It does talk about charity and taking care of people. But NOT A WORD about finding people jobs. Or anything else he STRETCHED out of scriptures. He references, “they” teaching that no one should go hungry. But people do go hungry. And it will be worse when the NEW WORLD ORDER takes over. “They” say that no one should go without shelter. But that is exactly what is happening around the world.
    No he has lied. It does NOT say any of this in the Bible. He is right that charity should be voluntary. But he missed it that it should also be INDIVIDUAL helping INDIVIDUAL. Not even the church can do real charity. It is NOT a corporate function.
    The Bible is clear. He ADDED to what the Bible said and is in danger of judgement.

    Ignore this false preacher. He is NOT serving God but himself, by declaring what is NOT in the Bible.

  • Buck O’Fama

    Kudos to the pastor for refuting socialism from a Christian point of view.
    I also like the classic quote from Margaret Thatcher:
    – “Socialism works fine – until you run out of other people’s money.”

    Socialism has destroyed the economy of every country that has embraced it.

    Intelligence is among other things, the ability to learn from your own mistakes.
    Wisdom is, among other things, the ability to learn from the mistakes of others.

    Let us, as a People, show some degree of wisdom. Look at the evidence in Europe.
    We don’t need to repeat the experiment here. SOCIALISM DOESN’T WORK.

  • James in Texas

    Anything government gives it first must take from those who “earned” said property or monies. If you do not believe this, explain how it is that our government has created nearly $19 Trillion of “public debt”, which we will be obliged to pony-up in the future. By the very act of allowing this, we have hung a hugh debt on our Grand and Great-Grandchildren, but those responsible for this will walk-away without any cares or responsibility!

  • Shaymamma8

    So many people on this site are talking about people on welfare not willing to work, but say nothing about all the welfare which is given to major corporations on a daily basis. Food stamps, minimal cost health care are a drop in the bucket compared to the incentives billionaires get for their companies. And what do they do, they send the jobs oversees so that they can pay those people way below the average salary over here. What do we get here in return, cheap crappy goods, and no jobs. You are fighting the wrong people, the poor are not your enemy, the rich are…..

  • sox83cubs84

    Socialism works fine…until you run out of other peoples’ money.

  • h m rowland

    Socialism…sermon.on.the.mount/the.beatitudes.

  • sue lenhart

    Spot on! Not bad for someone who admits that he is not an expert on socialism.

  • Paul Carelli

    Agree, great comparison. Socialism is the enemy of American freedom and liberty

  • rothgar

    Au Contraire, Rev. Piper seems to have applied his own definition to socialism that includes coercion that does not necessarily exist in the Oxford Dictionary Definition:

    A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    The idea that a Christian can’t play by societal rules plainly violates the writings of the Apostle Paul who directs Christians to be upright, law abiding members of society. To imply the collective ownership or regulation of the means of … is coercion suggests a level of greed that appears inconsistent with the Words of Jesus – the rich young ruler (or pastor in this case). Hmm sounds like Pastor Piper may need to spend more time reading and studying the Red Letter words and less time pontificating about that which he doesn’t know about.

  • Kathy Leon

    John Piper hit the nail on the head! Helping those in need is mandated by God to those who can fulfil another’s need out of their own abundance. Therefore, in true Godly community no one lacks for anything!

    Socialism mandated by Governments demands more and more contribution from the people’s labor. Socialism produces an Oligarchy where the few rule over the many. Eventually the people’s needs are ignored to the point where most lack basic needs, except of course, those in power who live “high off the hog”! The people rise up, of course, the people are inaffective because those in power have confiscated all the guns.

    Welcome to communism!

    C

  • Russell Ehlert

    You can tele-GRAPH, tele-PHONE, but you can’t tell a Commie – ANYTHING!

  • Francisco Machado

    The prime function of Socialism and one at which it excels (with one glaring exception) is to remove both the benefits of success and the hardships of failure. The exception is government itself, for the higher on the pile of struggling functionaries an individual can claw themselves, the more favors they can curry, the greater the power and the greater the rewards. The rest of us are the serfs – return to the feudal system.